Tourmaline’s New Definitive Biography of Marsha P. Johnson

Speaker 1 [00:00:09] Hey fam, it’s me, Imara. Welcome to the TransLash Podcast. A show where we tell trans stories. To save trans lives. Marsha P. Johnson has become a global figure, both within and without. The trans community, but the stories around her are often flattened into myths. Or fragments. Very rarely is the person behind the myth exposed. That’s why I’m thrilled to be able to welcome Tourmaline. Who has written a new biography of Marsha. Which tells the expansive. Multi-layered. And powerful story. About Marsha Puchance. The book is entitled Marsha, The Joy and Defiance of Marsha P. Johnson. It comes out on May 20th. And that’s why I am thrilled. To be able to have this conversation right before tourmaline goes. On her book tour. To tell us about the brilliance. And complexity of the one and only. Marsha P. Johnson.

Speaker 2 [00:01:09] Right after Stonewall. Marsha was talking about. You know, starting HRT and- She’s not in such a Marsha way. She’s like, you know, I got a I got a handful, my bust is a handful. But it’s like it’s a nice handful. And I was like, this is so beautiful, so Marsha.

Speaker 1 [00:01:26] So with that. Let’s start out as always. With some trans joy. Oral history has always been a way for our communities to pass down stories of survival. Joy and becoming. Caro de Robertis is the author of seven acclaimed books. Including Cantoras. As well as the president and the frog. With honors ranging from the Stonewall Book Award. To the Penn Faulkner finalist list. Their newest work So many stars. Is an oral history of trans- non-binary, genderqueer, and two-spirit people of color. And it just hit bookshelves this week. Sharing stories from activists. Artists and more. This collection captures the courage of trans lives. In poetry. And pose. Here’s Karo. To tell us more.

Speaker 3 [00:02:31] There are a couple of elders in the book who lived under authoritarian regimes in Argentina and in Cuba. So Nelson de Alerta Perez, you know, was. Arrested and tortured multiple times by the Cuban government for holding drag shows, which were illegal. And yet when she talks about these drag shows. They are so magnificent. And enjoy. In our descriptions are just palpable. She’s like, I dropped out of high school because I was. Bullied by homophobic people. And I was working construction, but I used money from my construction to just rent a house, go on the beach in Havana and say there’s gonna be. A show on Saturday. I always made sure that we rented a mansion that had a grand staircase. So all the queens could make a grand exit down the staircase. And then we would do the show and it would be packed. You know, 300 people would come in. And I find that story so inspiring. Today. Right now. And one of the things I take from it is that. Our sources of joy? Are defiant. And essential. Our defiant joy is one of the ingredients. Of resistance and resilience and on-goingness for us in… Times like the ones that we’re facing now.

Speaker 1 [00:03:50] Do you know someone like Haru who embodies trans joy? Then send us an email at trans slash underscore podcast. Translash.org and make sure to include their name. Contact information. And why you think they should get a shout out. In any future TransJoy segment. And with that… Let’s get into my conversation. With Tourmaline. I’m so glad to be joined today by award-winning artist, filmmaker and author. The one and only Tourmaline. A Guggenheim Fellow and one of Time 100’s most influential people Tourmaline is nationally recognized. For her storytelling work. Across Disciplines. Her films, including Happy Birthday, Marsha, and Salacia. Have been showcased at institutions like MoMA. Tape Modern. And the Venice Biennale. Her art is also held in the permanent collections at the Whitney. And the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Among other prestigious institutions. Tourmaline’s upcoming book, Marsha. The Joy and Defiance of Marsha P. Johnson. Is the first definitive biography. Of the iconic. Of black trans activists. Tourmaline also has decades of community organizing experience. Including leading the trans health campaign at the Silvia Rivera Law Project. She has also received more awards that I have time to list. Including the Stonewall Visionary Award. In the HBO. Queer Art Prize. Tourmaline, it’s great to see you in person. Great to be talking with you. Congratulations on. This triumph. The people who are listening won’t be able to see me holding up. Your biography of Marsha, but… Congratulations! On what is a labor of scholarship and love that you have been on. Since you were a teenager.

Speaker 2 [00:05:40] Yeah, it’s been a journey. It’s been. Honestly, I talk about it as a gift that I received, right? This understanding and desire to learn and know more about Marsha P. Johnson. And it has culminated in this biography, Marsha, The Joy and Defiance of Marsha P. Johnson. It’s wonderful to be here and to talk to you about it.

Speaker 1 [00:05:59] And so because I knew that we were going to be speaking to Diane talking about Marsha. I wore flowers.

Speaker 2 [00:06:05] I see them. You are giving floral arrangement in the best possible way. It’s beautiful.

Speaker 1 [00:06:12] Thank you. And you’re giving pink. So we are honoring her even in our presentation. Your socks have like little tiny flowers on them.

Speaker 2 [00:06:19] Exactly. Thank you for clocking in. Yes, you know, we’re always… Yes, literally.

Speaker 1 [00:06:25] One of the questions that I have for you is… How did you go about getting your arms around someone? Who is an enigma? And what I mean by that is that. Even people who knew her really well, who were the closest to her. Such as Sylvia. Said that she was a person who lived in her own realm. That’s a quote that you have in the book. So if she’s a person who lives in her own realm, we knew that she. Engaged in religious visions, she had spiritual visions. You know, she communed and spoke with the dead. Right? Like she had all of these things going on around her. So how do you as a biographer, how do as a writer? Go about getting your arms around someone.

Speaker 2 [00:07:09] She was so expansive and abundant. In life and both. Her material sense. And her relationship with the immaterial. And so. Quote from Sylvia Rivera comes from Queens in Exile, The Forgotten Ones, this essay. Where she talks about. Marsha seeing the world through different eyes and that being part of brilliance and beauty because she didn’t just see what was around her, the material conditions that were. So often not enough. But she used that as a jumping off point. As a launching pad to dream and imagine and see the world. And world it into being. In the way that she wanted. And so for me. I was really interested in Seeing that. Great capacity to call those big, beautiful and Robin DG Kelley way freedom dreams into the material. From Elizabeth, New Jersey and talking to her family, right? From Times Square and learning more about the history of. The sex industry in Times Square and how Marsha was. Oh, yes, a waitress at Child’s and- Yes, hanging out at the porn theaters. And also, yes. Gathering community and bringing everyone into these hourly hotels in Times Square. They call them hot spring hotels. And as a place to like have some relief and refuge. And so. To me. The way that the book is structured is Just really the slices of life. In her expansive journey. Um, that allowed me to have like different insights. Organizing and activism around HIV AIDS and the AIDS epidemic. And how she like one of her entryways into that was. Dancing, right, the dance-a-thons and the AIDS walks and… Her life in Los Angeles. Part of why it took so long to write is, like you said, such an expansive person. And wanting to know. You know, from all aspects of her life. That’s unique. Part of Russia.

Speaker 1 [00:09:13] And one of the things that also I would imagine makes it. Hard or made it hard. Is the fact that trans lives in general, but specifically trans lives at this time. Were and are under Chronicles. Right? And so therefore. Now not only do you have this person who is expansive, right, who kind of is Inside of time and outside of time at the same time. I’m You also then have the challenge of. Sort of history, her history, their history, because it’s also a history of community that you wrote. Put together in fragments.

Speaker 2 [00:09:48] Well, I am really the beneficiary of people who came before me. So whether it’s Anoni, the incredible musician, singer who was archiving, writing, and learning about Marsha. Or people from her performance group called the Hot Peaches. There was a member named Tony Nunziata who started. Filming her making a documentary about her and the weeks before she died. And also there are a few other, you know, brilliant. Artists and activists who are like Who knew? Marsha’s Power? And wanted to. Write about it. Steve Watson of the Village Voice, you know, doing this beautiful profile on her. So to me it was. Wonderful to see. How my process really was in. Kind of a long line of other people who. Also beneficiaries of martial magic, as I call it.

Speaker 1 [00:10:42] Let’s also not discount your role in this. I think that one of the reasons why. That we. Actually know what we know about Marsha and even the way in which she had been. Re-centered in our culture. Driven largely by youth in the 2000s is because of a lot of your. Sort of painstaking. Sometimes ad hoc but you know, continually focused archiving of her life, right? You meeting people who knew her. Being willing and seeing as a trusted repository. For those things, right? And for the things that support her life. I mean, I think that, you know, you also are a big part of the story.

Speaker 2 [00:11:23] I mean That’s why I talk about. You know the gift of it all because to me it really felt When I was a teen, moving to New York and taking the one. To the village and hanging out. On the pier where my community was, you know, taking up space, showing up, showing out in these beautiful, profound ways. Hearing the whispers of Marsha. To me it was a gift because I got to turn the volume up. On my life. I got to feel all of who I was in that moment, right, and make connections. And friendships and relationships from that place. Which is a powerful place to build community. And so. Yes, I have been. Of like writing about her, sharing about her doing teachings about her. Receiving. Material from her friends and family and loved ones and also those moments really People were so generous with me. And I wanted to and continue to. Move in that generosity and that’s why I wrote the book.

Speaker 1 [00:12:24] I mean, also films about her.

Speaker 2 [00:12:25] Yes, yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 [00:12:27] I mean, and it is also interesting that kind of like her, you lived. In a duality when you were first coming. On her as a figure, as a person, right? Because you were. At Columbia, at an Ivy League school, right? Doing that, right. And then catching. The very long one train.

Speaker 2 [00:12:48] The very long one train

Speaker 1 [00:12:50] The very long one train down to Christopher Street, right? And then totally. Embedding yourself in a community that was trans, that was grassroots. That was the exact opposite. Of the world that you were leaving. These worlds couldn’t be. Further apart. In your person, you were bridging them. And in that, I mean, there’s so much in her life.

Speaker 2 [00:13:13] She would bridge communities all the time, you know, so she grew up in Elizabeth, New Jersey. And I’ve been blessed to get to know. Her sister Jeannie and her brother Bob and her nephew Al and she would take her friends. Home, her fellow street queens, her friends. To Elizabeth, New Jersey. Al talks about how Sylvia and Marsha. Were his babysitters. And so it’s really beautiful to also kind of fill in that history, right? She or someone who. You know, broad. Fellow street queens up to the department stores to do their makeup at the beauty counters, right? Bridging these worlds. Through beauty and care. And in knowing that we get to have it all.

Speaker 1 [00:13:58] We are just steps away. We’re having this conversation just steps away. From where. Marsha would have been when she actually left. Elizabeth New Jersey as a teen.

Speaker 2 [00:14:08] That’s right.

Speaker 1 [00:14:09] In Times Square. And one of the interesting things that I think that you do is that you foreground. That history. I would say even slightly more than… The village, right? Because the village is so much identified with them and there’s… A lot of conversation and stories and mythology. But one of the things that you do is to talk about the way in which times square.

Speaker 4 [00:14:32] I’m sorry.

Speaker 1 [00:14:32] Was essential for for your life. And especially The way that I think of them as these like. Slithers of freedom, right? These very small places. Where queer and trans people could congregate, and from that… Begin to expand over time. Can you just talk a little bit about that world? Talk a little about. The restaurant where Sylvia worked as a teenager and that’s where Marsha met her. The hotels and sex work and all of that.

Speaker 2 [00:15:04] So… Marsha moved to New York City in 1963 after she graduated high school. She’d been coming back and forth to from Elizabeth to Times Square. And In Time Square was a powerful BEAUTIFUL. Community of trans and gender nonconforming people. Um, Sylvia Rivera was 13 when she met Marsha, right? And they were both working at this place called Child’s restaurant. Which I think Vanity Fair and I’m kind of review of. Eating establishments said there’s a dash of lavender here, right? It was a kind of underground queer place and Sylvia would go in full face makeup, right, and she’d be working in the accounting office. And Marsha was a waitress. And then she would do her bit, you know, like she was. Had such a strong desire to be in Times Square. You know, like there was. Thriving community here of queer and trans gender non-conforming people also Broadway She wanted to act, you know, so she would do. Her bit of Spared change for a starving actress like right in front of the Broadway theaters and people who were commuting and taking the train would give her money and so she was part of the Lively street-based performances that are happening here And then also she had a real community and I mentioned before, so. A lot of times they would rent. When they could get a little bit of money. Hourly hotels right to just have a place of sanctuary and refuge and a place to also dream they called them hot spring hotels because whether it was fall, winter, spring, or summer, you couldn’t open the window and it was boiling. It was a moment where people got to. Escape the scrutiny and surveillance of the police who would literally do these so they would come through time square. And whether you were working at Child’s Restaurant. Or you were hustling in the street, if you were a trans person, you would be. Arrested and put in jail. And so. This was a kind of constant. Scrutiny and surveillance. Of their lives and also. Miss Major was performing in Times Square, which is really incredible to think about just the fabric. With the jewel box review and and so there’s just This was… The place so much so that even after Stonewall. When Sylvia Rivera joined. The Gay Activist Alliance and wanted to. Petition for a non-discrimination bill. She came to Times Square today, right? She came too Times Square. Where she knew everyone. And that is just a place where they really. Created and received life.

Speaker 1 [00:17:40] Well, and also it was. It’s also really. Essential that in these spaces of… Self-actualization where they could be themselves, right? Is where they. Began to thought about a better future. So like in these hourly hotels, right? In kind of the back of bookstores where they would work as sex workers, right? That’s exactly right. Like in, you know, like… In even in the exchange.

Speaker 2 [00:18:08] That they would have in child. And so to me, that was. So powerful to understand that even in the midst of the most challenging, harsh conditions. There are the seeds of what we want to create. When we know what we don’t want as Marsha like taught me and teaches us. We have clarity also about what we do want. And we get to dream that world and then we get to chase that world into. A fully material thing that we share with each other.

Speaker 1 [00:18:37] And I think that one that’s really relevant for this moment, but it’s also the fact that, like, they live in a deeply challenging world. Like, this is an understatement, right, that I am saying, like, that’s a euphemism. We’re talking about a world in which. BING! Anything on the queer spectrum. Was made illegal in so many different ways. Whether or not it was the three articles law, like if you had three articles of clothing that didn’t conform to gender, that was a reason to put you in jail. That’s right. Whether or not It was the. What was it, sexual, psychopathy, designation. Which could end you in psychological. Essentially gulags where you could be experimented on, where they did lobotomies, castrations. The illegality and half the states, kind of the repressiveness of the Eisenhower administration. We’re talking about a- DEEPLY deeply repressive and oppressive time in which violence was kind of their constant companion. Right? Like they all experience. These intense levels of violence, right? I mean, Sylvia’s story. Is bone crushing, right, when you read. I mean, even from the time that she was practically before birth, her mother was at war with her. And then, you know, Marsha’s life of violence and all the rest of it. And at the same time. They refused to be crushed.

Speaker 2 [00:19:59] Exactly. The conditions were so harsh, and yet… They New. Such. Incredible intensity. Their value. And they’re deserving this. Of life. And so. That is why I think those moments in the hourly hot spring hotels. Are so beautiful. Because what they’re doing is planning and dreaming their future into being. In the midst of a mess of a thing. They’re downloading with such clarity. What they do deserve, right? Freedom to move with ease. Around the world. Sylvia in an interview with Steve Watson of the Village Voice. Talked about how The police would just, there used to be a restaurant here called Bickford’s. And the street queens would hang out at Brickford’s, you know, weather. Between hustling and Hang out or… After child’s restaurant. They would go and have a kiki and, you know, like a little coffee. At Bickford’s and the police would literally back… The van. Up to Bickford’s and empty the entire establishment out. And arrest them. And so. And Sylvia, you know, talks a lot, too, about, like… Learning so much about how to survive and navigate they would be taken to night court. After they were arrested and Sylvia. You know, didn’t want to. Be sent home to her grandmother. Her mother. Committed suicide and Attempted to kill Sylvia with rat poison and so Sylvia didn’t want to go home to her grandmother. There was just so much misunderstanding. And so she was, you know, she was so young. And she lied about her age. So that she could stay with her friends and and and be in jail with them but the judge. Came in and he looked at everyone. And, you know, you and that kind of. Transphobic ways like these are all men right there because they were done up and There were… Being themselves. And Sylvia laughed. You know, didn’t know that, like. You could just see it, right? Like she’s like 14 and you know. She thought it was funny, you know, like this, who’s this clown like coming in and passing judgment? Who’s probably a client also. Or wannabe client. Or wannabe client, you know what I mean? And then in her laughter, they were like. They got a longer sentence And so it was this moment where she was understanding. The rules of the street like and she was being taught them in Marsha. Had seen her earlier that day and was like. Do not go. On these streets like they’re doing a sweep. And so. And she was like, no, I’m just gonna let go. And then she got arrested and so. You can see the kinds of teachings and care and community. Right where we are in times square of that. Prefigured and It’s a foreshadowed star house. In the ways that later on when they moved from Times Square to the West Village. They were taking up space and creating life based off of these really harsh experiences that they had.

Speaker 1 [00:23:05] One of the things I think that gets lost often is that there’s a There’s methylization. Their lives. Yes. But the most fascinating things about their life as we’re touching upon is. The degree to which. They. Wanted to live lives of fulfillment. Right? They didn’t want to live lives of struggle. They didn’t want to lives of being marginalized. They didn’t want to live lives without love and without acceptance, right? And that that’s what they were battling for. And so. Like for them, it wouldn’t be hallmarks of our community. Too. Have those as the things that define kind of your worthiness and your. And the degree to which you are of community or not because what they were doing was fighting for a world. Where none of that would be at play when you read the star kind of manifesto.

Speaker 2 [00:23:59] That’s right. And also, you know, it’s so beautiful, too, how You know, they were talking about… The necessity for gender-affirming care. Marsha was talking about. You know, starting HRT and And she’s taught in such a Marsha way. She’s like, you know, I got a I got a handful, my bust is a handful. But it’s like it’s a nice handful. And I was like, this is so beautiful, so Marsha. And so… Clear the ways that care. Access to healthcare. Can help you. And support you coming to more of who you are, right? The denial of it. Can really push you far from that.

Speaker 1 [00:24:39] We also see the impact of the lack of. Material support. On their mental health and their ability to be activists, right? The longer these things went on, the more. Complications there were around their physical health, around their mental health, right? Around just their ability to be able to. Apply themselves in. The world in the way. That they did, but could have been so much more if they had just had. Decent income, decent housing, decent healthcare.

Speaker 2 [00:25:09] Yeah, the real basic needs. Organizer and the campaigns that I was doing were around. Access to healthcare. Welfare and housing, right, and also stopping a jail from being built in the South Bronx. And to me, it was really beautiful to see how. Marsha was an architect of these movements, right? Um… In nineteen seventy nine she was talking about right at Stonewall Stonewall have been turned into a bagel shop. And she was doing this interview with Steve Watson. She was talking about how. She didn’t have a home in that moment, and so she was keeping all of her clothes in a locker in Penn Station, and that really affected. Her capacity to just show up in the world. And so that speaks to. Star house and, and housing, right. When you have access to your most basic needs like. Health care, housing, food, welfare. You can thrive, right? So, yeah.

Speaker 1 [00:26:09] I want to get into a little bit of. I mean, there’s so much I could actually interview you. Interestingly for two hours because there’s so much, but we don’t have two hours but I wanna go into a little bit. And this may be strange for people, but I think it’s really important, especially when we’re living at a time of people erasing history. In the way that Maga has tried to totally. Twist Marsha and Sylvia’s story to undermine.

Speaker 2 [00:26:34] People. Yeah, right. And I think

Speaker 1 [00:26:35] And I think that one of the things that you’re a book. Does is it refutes that very clearly, right? And so one of the things that comes out all the time is that. It’s this conversation around nomenclature, right? Around what they call themselves. So what you will often hear amongst MAGA world, and they’re trying to get this stuff. I had to reserve myself like into history books and that sort of thing is to say. They really weren’t trans. Um, they were gay. Um, because… Marsha referred to herself as gay. Sylvia would say we’re fighting for gay rights. Right, these were essentially cross-dressing gay men and this idea of transness and trans people are real. And it was painful to hear. And ridiculous. Which are bookmates really plain. But this is one of the things that they’re saying. And I think that One of the things that we have to be clear about is that. Nomenclature at the time was different. Exactly. And additionally. They were using words. So that other people could attempt to understand who they were. Not necessarily. How they define themselves, right?

Speaker 2 [00:27:41] Yeah, so they were. In 1971, Marsha identified as a transsexual woman, right? As a pre-op transsextual woman and said, I want to go get bottom surgery, gender affirming surgery, and John Hopkins, right. Before that, she was accessing gender-affirming care, so was Sylvia. So was Andorra and Bambi Lamour, other people who are making up Star House. They talked on WBAI. In this. Two hour long interview that isn’t online that was just so wonderful to find. For hours about their dreams to access surgery and other forms of care. And understanding themselves as trans people. And Marsha and Sylvia both. We’re so generous in terms of that bridge work that we talked about where. They were. For gay rights, but. At the time there was Just language continued to evolve and evolve and evolved. You know, in 2001, Sylvia Rivera called herself a transgender woman at the LGBT Center. In New York City. And so. To me, that kind of rhetoric is purposeful misunderstanding. In order to continue our project of historical erasure. In order to continue to undermine the value and deservingness of our lives, and also it doesn’t reflect what they were doing. It’s just, it’s so, it so… And you know it’s like a historical counterfactual all the things it’s just part of a project where they’re really trying to Just invalidate our life.

Speaker 1 [00:29:09] I mean, it’s really interesting that you mentioned the center, because that was one of their early demands. It was the creation of a gay center that was run by LGBTQ people. That was like one of the early, so even that is a part of their vision. People will know about Stonewall and… Will have heard all the stories. I think one of the most interesting things for me is the way that. Kind of the confusion and the way in which the Stonewall story was able to be hijacked to erase them. Was the fact that the Stonewall itself was a confusing and segregated space. Exactly. So there are white people in the front. Yes. And then there’s this middle part, and then all the people of color and like lesbians and what we would call studs, everybody else is in the back. In the back! And everybody else was in the… That’s exactly right. And so we know from your book that actually Stonewall started from the back to the front. That’s actually right. Right, back to front with Marsha being… If not the first, among the first. Everybody has a different story, but she was definitely there in the mix. And so it’s really interesting the way in which people claimed that it was like white gay men, but it was actually the people who were in… The segregated marginalized space that actually started it.

Speaker 2 [00:30:19] And the inspector of the New York Police Department, Inspector Seymour Pine. Talks about that, talks about an interview with David Carter. About how it was trans and gender nonconforming people who were giving the most resistance, right? And how he wanted to go in there. And arrest trans people as evidence of Stonewall’s illegality. Trans people were there, right? Like trans and gender non-conforming, gender variant people. Were part of what was often called the black room, right, the back room. Barre and Marsha. So often could recall. The exact song that was playing. On the jukebox when the police raided. Marvin Gaze. Heard it through the grapevine. And so, there was a performance. Of this play called The Street by Doric Wilson. And Michael Michelle Lynch, who is. Part of the hot peaches with Marsha. Is an educator in the Bronx. And, um… Performance artist. Was performing the character Boom Boom, who was based off of Marsha, and Marsha was in the front row. And, you know, like… In Classic Marsha. The two of them didn’t know each other. Marsha was in the front row being like, Uh, and like, you know, and Michael Michelle was like, who is that, you know, like to. The other castmates. And people were like, that’s Marsha who was at Stonewall. And so. You know, they’re- were these beautiful moments where Marsha was You know, really trying to make sure that. That moment was understood by community. And then there was this beautiful kind of like. Other moment. Years later in the midst of that. HIV epidemic becoming more… And more. Sweeping of community and traumatic and really changing people. That Marsha was talking about how Stonewall happened in August on her birthday, right? And I write about that because a lot of people try to undermine Marsha’s contributions by saying She is being interviewed by Eric Marcasor. The one archive saying Oh, I wasn’t there, you know, till later. Until 2 a.m. Like one. Seymour Pine didn’t start the rate till 120. 2 a.m. Like That is so much later, but no, like. That’s 40 minutes into the rain, right? She talks about. How in that recounting I didn’t get there till later she talks about Stonewall happening in August on her birthday and so. What I write about is how trauma effects. Memory it is held and it shapes our understanding of the past. Especially when we’re in a moment as repressive. Grief and loss as was that Eisenhower pre-Stonewall moment. And how that really affects how people understand. What’s going on?

Speaker 1 [00:33:07] Well, it’s also the fact that as time went on, her life became more and more complicated. Yes. And that that would shape. Memory, right, because. Several nervous breakdown exactly gone through the trauma of the loss of her husband, which you should read about in the book she had contracted syphilis, which also like adds to the complexity around.

Speaker 4 [00:33:28] Yeah.

Speaker 1 [00:33:28] Mental health. And then on top of that, contending with a lot of people, even before she herself contracted HIV, the death of people around you. And it seems as if even when you write about her, that as she was going towards the end of her life, that time was like. Twisting and morphing. For her, right? It wasn’t, it was doing. She wasn’t as clear about what was happening when people say that around it. And it wasn’t in a way that it wasn’t what we would identify as schizophrenia. Really as if… There were. Other things that were happening.

Speaker 2 [00:34:02] Exactly. Shiasso! Was shot by… A client and lived from 1981. To 1992 with a bullet in her back. That’s right. It was too close to her spine. And that they couldn’t take it out and it affected her life in so many different ways like She was a performer. She did two performances a day with the Hot Peaches, the Downtown Theater troupe. And the angels of light. And then… After she was shot and living with a bullet in her back, it was hard for her to walk. She wasn’t able to go on tour to Europe. With the hot peaches because she couldn’t take long car rides, right? She had to sleep on the floor. Her life was really shaped by these. Incredibly harsh conditions. And also She had what I like to call a really privileged relationship with a divine Meaning, she had… Access to real conversations with saints. And God. She talked about seeing her dad in the water in the Hudson. about Hudson as the River Jordan and crossing it. She really had a profoundly spiritual… Understanding of the makeup of her life and everyone else’s.

Speaker 1 [00:35:07] That’s right, end of the world’s kind of around her. One of the things that I think is also really important about her and the political vision that they had. Is that it was an expansive one. In that time, it wasn’t only. About and for trans people. Thanks very much. Not only understood it to be connected, but actively worked with other groups. One of the most surprising things for me was the affinity, the affiliation with the learning from the cooperation from. The Black Panthers. The Young Laureates, a Puerto Rican group here, in addition to gay groups, right? And how Sylvia got into trouble for… Taking money from star the organization they founded Street Transmits Action Revolutionaries And because she went to a revolutionary conference with other, all these other groups in Washington, dressing down. Can you just talk a little bit about that? How they saw this as an expansive political movement?

Speaker 2 [00:36:04] But they really wanted to make sure that they’re. Liberation Movement and their organization Star was showing up in support of the Black Panther Party, of members who are. Incarcerated Afini Shakur or Angela Davis or… And then also going to actions and also. Part of the reason why they were so putting their focus on things like… Food was the Black Panther Party Breakfast Program, right? Than knowing that. People are too hungry, they can’t revolt. Right. Like in that kind of Fannie Lou Hamer sense and so. To me, they were students of these liberation movements. And also they were modeling how these really beautiful ideas of shelter and food and care. Mutual aid where profoundly necessary for their political and material future.

Speaker 1 [00:36:56] The other thing is how. What makes her hard to pin down. Is the fact that she was also. An artist.

Speaker 2 [00:37:03] Exactly.

Speaker 1 [00:37:03] Right, and we reference hot peaches. And for me, what was really interesting is, that’s how Andy Warhol got to know her.

Speaker 2 [00:37:10] That’s right.

Speaker 1 [00:37:10] And I saw the Warhol exhibit. Of a lot of his work in Chicago. Maybe five or six years ago. At the Art Institute there. Is. Pictures and paintings of Marsha. Were far more than I knew. It was, he was obsessed with her. Yes, literally. Right. Yeah, and there was something about her that shifted his vision. That’s right. And this goes to one of the things that you say is that there was something about that her very presence shifted consciousness, right? Right. Say it like… It moved something. And that is the very definition of a powerful artist.

Speaker 2 [00:37:48] That’s exactly right. Augusto Machado, who is still alive, is a dear friend and was so supportive. Generous with the research of the book talks about how when people would go. And get off the One Train. On Christopher Street. And see Marsha performing or standing there or sweeping the street. Or, you know, like doing spare change for a starving actress. Consciousness would be shifted. Because they would understand that they were in a place with a greater sense of freedom. And that they were allowed to turn up the volume of their lives and be all of who they are. In that place and in that moment. And that was exactly what happened with Andy Warhol. Andy Warhol saw Marsha perform multiple times. In the angels of light and also in the hot peaches. And Marsha. Was doing. An audition for this film called The Happy Hooker. And the producer saw it. And when she got to the taping, the casting director or whatever was like, no, you’re not right for this. So she really. Understandably took it personally and and then marched down to Andy Warhol’s office and said, you’re gonna do my portrait right now, wearing the same thing that she wore to the audition. And then she talks about that wasn’t the first time that. Anywhere high, taking her portrait, taking her photo. That this was actually like something that she had a previous ongoing relationship. Which speaks to exactly what you’re saying of like. These are. Beautiful portraits because Marsha is a beautiful person. And she shifted. His consciousness.

Speaker 1 [00:39:19] She was. Part of. That entire scene in the 1980s was totally shifted. Culture and Warhol and Basquiat and Keith Haring and Chris Jones and then, you know, and Madonna. Honestly, we have to honestly.

Speaker 2 [00:39:39] One of her music videos at the Gaiety, which was a club that Willie Bashir’s, you know, her friend and roommate was working and performing at. And Marsha talks about Madonna. It’s really interesting to listen to the audio and watch the video of Marsha talking about people like Madonna and. And, and also seeing that. Connection between the two and how Marsha as Marsha’s performance in life. Allowed for. So many others, right?

Speaker 1 [00:40:04] Sadly. This interview hasn’t come to an end. I’m very depressed about that, because I feel like I’m just. Because I feel like I’m just-

Speaker 2 [00:40:10] We are just scratching the ice. I know, I’m literally just-

Speaker 1 [00:40:11] I know, literally just scratching the surface, the iceberg. I feel like I’m walking across the ocean and just putting my foot on waves, right? Not getting any deeper than that. So we’ll have to figure out another way to do this again. Yeah, part two. Yeah, exactly. One of the things that I find really interesting and ironic is… The way that we are talking about her is being an expansive person and being in and outside of time. I think. There’s a lot of conversation around the tragedy of her death. I honestly think that. Ironically, she would be Please. Over the varying and competing versions of how she died. Because all of those versions. Arrrgh. Are versions of her life that are true. Right. That’s right. Did she walk into the water because she saw her father and because everyone says she kept being obsessed about that. Right. What did that happen? Was she murdered by these group of boys or men who someone saw? That’s also real and could not be possible because of. Street violence Was it the mafia, right? That’s another version, because there are all these other connections. What are the ways in which this happened? And all of them. All of them have staying power. Because all of them could be true given. How expansive and complicated. Her life was.

Speaker 2 [00:41:31] That’s right. Yeah, and I think that that part of the book I was really trying to honor all of those aspects. Right. And really follow the through line of each one with a lot of care. And, you know, it’s like she lived with a bullet in her back. Like this taxi driver tried to kill her, right? She talked about being. A cat who had nine lives because of the number of times she survived. Someone trying to kill her. And also. You know, at the same time. The peer was… It had holes in it, you know, like there was these kind of structural conditions and also at the same time. There was mental health and not being able to access care. You know, there’s just like an on and on and And so to me, it was really important to. Go through each part and aspect and You know, and also right before she died just a few weeks later. She wrote one of her only songs. Talking about when I die. Please don’t cry. I’m going to come back like she had a deep understanding right that this body this f*****g was simply a vessel for for God and for source and for spirit. And that it was not. The beginning or the end of her story in any way.

Speaker 1 [00:42:43] And also the fact that she lived the life that she wanted to live. Right more than anything. Right. Yeah. She said. Paraphrasing, but if I have to live a life without comfort in order to be who I am, then that’s what I’m gonna do. She lived the life she wanted to do and there’s no powerful statement. About someone’s existence than their ability to be able to live. The life, this brief time that we have exactly as they want to. That’s exactly right. Tourmaline, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Whether it be from your writing, your books. Your arts. York films. Films in the making. Like you continue to enrich our lives and our history and our vision. With your existence and just thank you so much.

Speaker 2 [00:43:30] It’s an honor to be here, so thank you.

Speaker 1 [00:43:33] And everyone needs to rush out. Buy this book. It’s gonna be a best seller. It is gonna be the best seller, I’m telling you. Thank you so much. Thank you. That was… Author and artist, Tourmaline. Thank you for joining me on the Translash Podcast. Now listen all the way through to the end of the show. For something extra. Did you like what you heard? Make sure to go leave a comment on Spotify. Or a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. You might just hear me read it out on the show. The TransLash Podcast is produced by TransLash Media. The TransLash team includes Oliver-Ash Kleine, and Aubrey Callaway. Xander Adams is our senior sound engineer and. Contributing producer. This episode also includes how- from Lucy Little, who is helping to produce it. This show gets to your ears with the help of our social media team, including Morgan Asprey. The music you heard was composed by Ben Draghi. And also courtesy of ZZK Records. TransLash podcast is made possible by the support of foundations. And listeners like you. I am looking forward to being at home for a little bit. But just for a little bit. As you’ve probably seen from social media. I was in Paris in part for my birthday, which was last week, and then… In London this week for meetings and such. And so it will be nice to just. Be home in New York in the spring. I’m hoping the weather will cooperate. So that I can just be in the streets.