Trans Kids and the Military: Trump’s Policy Priorities

[00:00:07] Hi Fam. It’s me, Imara. Welcome to the TransLash podcast, a show where we tell trans stories to save trans lives. While we’re in a brave new world. Donald Trump has been inaugurated for a second time and is making good on his promise to go after trans people, specifically the military educators and the families of trans kids. It’s all a part of his bid to make good on his campaign promise to, quote, get that transgender and sanity the hell out of here. So I wanted to talk to people who are working at the front lines of these two critical issues, the parts of our community that will be among the biggest targets. Now we’re going to have a series of conversations because it is not beginning, nor will it end here in terms of who’s the most affected. But there’s no better place to start than where the Trump administration has vowed to start than these two areas. So first, I’ll be talking with Army veteran and advocate Patricia King about the stakes of a new trans military ban.

[00:01:11] It demonizes trans people and puts them in a class of people that are unfit, unqualified and a class of people that can’t be our best and brightest.

[00:01:20] Next, I’m joined by the executive director of Glisten, Melanie Willingham Jaggers, to discuss her organization’s plans to help protect students, teachers and schools from the anti-trans and broader anti LGBTQ attacks.

[00:01:34] Be clear about where you stand. Defend it. Defend it and make them take it from you.

[00:01:42] But before we get to these two important conversations, I wanted to start out as always. Even now with some trans joy. But the. There are an estimated 15,000 trans people serving in the United States military. You heard that right. 50,000. Lieutenant Ray Timberlake is one of them. After joining the Navy at 17 years old, researched for many years before coming out as nonbinary in 2020. Since then, they’ve continued their career in the Navy while also working as the public affairs officer at Sparta Pride. It’s a nonpartisan organization committed to ensuring the rights and opportunities of all trans servicemembers and potential recruits. Here’s Ray to tell us more.

[00:02:41] Being in the military and being in this very binary environment, not knowing a lot of trans people serving in uniform, I felt very isolated and alone. Then I found Sparta, and now I have two really great non-binary, trans masked friends who are very close to my age. Both serving the Navy, both raising families, and just to see myself kind of reflected back through my peers and the people around me has just been so valuable and so rewarding and has really actually energized me to make myself available to be that for someone else who might need it.

[00:03:20] Lieutenant Ray Timberlake, you are Trans Joy. Do you know someone like Ray who embodies trans joy? If so, send us an email that trans large underscore podcast at trans by.org and make sure to include their name contact information and why you think they should get a shout out in a future trans choice segment. Okay. With that, let’s get into my first conversation with Patricia. I was so glad to be joined for the first time on the show by decorated US Army veteran and advocate Patricia King. Patricia made history as the first openly trans infantry soldier in the United States military when she came out in 2015 after serving with honor and distinction. She entered civilian life as an outspoken advocate for LGBTQ rights in the military. Patricia’s leadership on this issue includes working with Sparta pride and advising senior leaders at the Pentagon on trans military policy. She also testified in front of Congress against Trump’s ban on trans service members in 2019. That same year, she was awarded the Harvey Milk Foundation Medal for Valor for her dedication to inclusivity and equality. Patricia, thank you so much for joining me.

[00:04:40] Amara, thank you so much for having me.

[00:04:42] Well, first off, I just want to say I just wish that we didn’t have to have this conversation or any of the conversations that we we’re having. But, you know, here we are. It’s reality. And one of the things that they teach you in the military, of course, is that you have to deal with reality. So here we are. I, first of all, want to have a sense from you, because I would imagine that most of the people who are listening are not familiar with military service as a way of life. And I’m wondering if you can just talk about for the estimated 15,000 trans people who are in the military, what is that life like? And can you talk about the fact that it is all encompassing for many people, it is where they get their housing. It is where they get their health care. It is in many cases, the way in which they have planned to retire. So can you just talk a little bit about what military service is for people who are not familiar and what it means?

[00:05:46] Yeah, absolutely. And I think we have to step further than that back. Let’s take a look at Gen Z and think about the fact that about 23% of Gen Z is qualified to serve in the military without a waiver. If you think about high school seniors and students in college right now, less than 1 in 4 of them is even qualified to serve in the military without a waiver. We’re talking about things like health issues, obesity, perhaps their level of education for their Asvab test. Moral issues like trouble with the law. All of those things can be barriers to service. And so before we even talk about serving, we talk about the fact that serving is something that not every American has the opportunity to do. Meanwhile, we have transgender folks who are fully qualified and ready to come into the military and those who are serving right now. For those who do serve, you’re absolutely right. The military is all encompassing. You live it and breathe it from 630 in the morning when you salute the flag until five in the afternoon, when you salute the flag on its way down. You receive $50,000 in training just to become service member. That’s leadership training. That’s skill training. That’s job training. And then for those who have had the honor to serve, the opportunity for generational wealth abounds because they have the opportunity for a VA loan, which is a loan with no upfront cost, and it’s accessible at a lower credit score, and that’s available to veterans. And we all know that homeownership is one of those huge steps to generational wealth. And next to that is educational. And for those who serve, they have access to the G.I. Bill, which is going to give them an education. So that service provides them that stepping stone towards generational wealth, that built a family, that builds a life, you know. And so those things can’t be ignored when we talk about the benefits of service. But for those who served, they receive training, they receive skills, they receive camaraderie, they receive leadership. And all of those things build a service member that, whether they’re transgender, cis, tender, whatever their affinities are, what they have is they have this dedication to serve. They have this pride in what they do. And for them, it’s not about their gender, right? It’s just about doing their job and serving their country.
[00:08:10] And on this point, I think, you know, it’s really important for us to talk about like the scope of the military. And what I mean by that is that, you know, the military itself within the federal government, is the single largest employer in the United States. So regardless of how people feel or think about military service for a range of reasons, policy related, there would automatically be trans people with the largest employer in the United States. And also, I think it’s important for people to understand that there are a range of positions in the military, many of which have nothing to do with lethality, killing people. I if there are therapist in the military and you know, there are people who deal with transportation like there’s a range of jobs that people have in the military in terms of just the overall scale and scope of this massive global organization.

[00:09:04] Yeah. Not only is the United States military the largest employer in the country in the world, it’s the largest employer of transgender Americans. And we have a propensity to serve. There is twice that system for Americans, for whatever reasons. 19% of trans adults are veterans. By comparison to roughly 10% of Suspender adults are veterans. So we serve at a propensity, nearly twice as high in the military. So, yes, you’re absolutely right. You’re going to find transgender Americans, whether there’s a ban, whether there’s not a ban, because we are a segment of America and we’re a segment of America’s best and brightest. And that’s what the military is looking for.

[00:09:47] We know that the military ban is a day one priority and will, of course, be litigated as it continues to move forward. But it’s not going to stop the administration, of course, from driving out trans people from the military. And can you talk about what that means? What does it mean for people to be thrown out of this organization?

[00:10:16] Well, it’s going to be detrimental for every one of those service members, but it’s going to be so much more detrimental for the military. As I’ve been writing stories about transgender service members, I’ve spoken to, you know, Olivia Stella, who is a physical therapist in the Army. She went to West Point and then she went to Ranger School. And then the Army paid for her to go to Baylor. She’s one of the top physical therapists in the Army. If you remove her from the army, Olivia is not the only one who suffers. Every soldier who would have had the benefit of her medical expertise suffers. You know, Gordon Herrera, another soldier who is going to be teaching at West Point. He is going to be teaching mathematics to the next generation of leaders. His expertise is not only in mathematics, but in leadership is invaluable. The Army has paid for him to get an education so that he can take that back to West Point. Imagine if we lose that institutional knowledge if we revoked 15,000 of our best and brightest, many of them with over ten years of service. Many of those service members, senior noncommissioned officers and officers, it’s not simply those service members who lose. The military loses all of that knowledge. All of those millions of dollars in training and millions of hours and training, the military loses that.

[00:11:44] Can you just tell us a little bit about the experience beyond the impact on the institution of what happens to people when they are pushed out? I mean, what happened kind of during the first Trump administration? I know there were several stories that detail that and included in your answer could even be not only what is it like to build your career around an institution that tells you that you’re no longer welcome? But also, anecdotally, I have personally heard a people say that they know of certain military members who are thinking about and have already started to force the transition in order to try to stay into the military. So you just paint a picture of the personal cost on these servicemembers of either being pushed out or the wrenching decision to stay, but then to not be able to be yourself.

[00:12:36] When I started my transition, it was on the heels of the the first ban in 2015 and there was no policy. It was a really confusing time to be a trans person in the military. So it was a balance of trying to be honest to myself but fit within the policies that were available at the time. And for those who are facing a potential ban, we don’t know what it’s going to look like. Whether those who are currently serving will be told that they can continue to serve, but they can’t re-enlist or stay in beyond their current service obligation. We don’t know if they’ll be told that they have to leave immediately. We don’t know if people will be told they’d have to due transition. But no matter what, we’re going to be told that those servicemembers are going to be targeted not for what they do, but for who they are and for them. Every day is going to be a question of did a policy change and suddenly I’m not fit to serve. Did the policy change? And suddenly I’m not within a regulation and every day they’re going to have to be concerned about whether they’re being evaluated on their qualifications or their gender identity. They’re going to have to worry about discrimination. They’re going to have to worry about potentially being forced out of the military and what kind of discharge will they receive and what stigma will that carry?

[00:13:58] Why do you think that there is this obsession that the Trump administration now for its second go round? Has with trans people in the military. Why was this among the first anti-trans actions that they took last time? It has been clearly something that they’ve been thinking about for the last four years about what they would do if they got a second bite at the apple. So why do you think that there is this rabid focus on pushing trans people out of the military?

[00:14:33] Yeah, that’s a great question. First of all, I think that, you know, the 2010 saw a rise of understanding of trans identities, trans medicine, and that visibility was great. But it also brought us into focus for those who maybe are not comfortable with transpeople. And we know that there are going to be those who take advantage of that. And as the pendulum swings the other way, now we’re in the crosshairs. Why the military? A couple of reasons. First of all, the military is one of the easiest areas for them to implement a ban. They don’t have to go to Congress. They don’t have to go to the courts. This can happen through executive action. Secondly, there’s a stigma. There’s a pride that goes into serving in the military. I just mentioned that only 23% of Gen Z is qualified to serve without a waiver. And to tell trans people to tell America the trans people can’t serve in our military. It demonizes trans people and puts them in a class of people that are unfit, unqualified and a class of people that can’t be our best and brightest. It says that trans people can’t be heroes. They said that says that because of who you are, it doesn’t matter what you can do. And that forces us into a seemingly lower class of Americans. And that’s the goal, right? That’s the goal that allows us to be more easily stigmatized and more easily demonized.

[00:16:01] I think that’s right. I mean, I think that when you look at US history, that because of the centrality of the military to the functions of the federal government and the fact that there is a direct line of authority to the president who has wider range of policymaking authority over the military, that in many ways, at various times it’s been the first road to equality for people in the United States. You know, that was true for African-American men during the Civil War, for example. It is still true for immigrants right now, many of whom will come to the United States serving in the military and can be, you know, made U.S. citizens after a term of service. That’s been true for women. It’s been true for gays, especially after, you know, all of the litigation and things of the 1990s and the 2000. And so because of that, right, if you want to try to choke off the road to equality in America, the military is conversely a really good place to do that and to start. And I think that that’s really sad in terms of what is being communicated through a military crackdown on trans service, all of the things that you just highlighted and also reversing this ladder that it’s been for so many people in the United States.

[00:17:22] The all volunteer force requires volunteers. For years, our branches of service have failed to meet their recruiting requirements. In 2023, the Army fell 15,000 service members short. Think about that. The same number of trained service members there are. The army failed to bring in that number of service members in 2023, 2024. They had to lower their recruiting number so that they could meet that number. The military is struggling to attract the best and brightest. The military is struggling to maintain an all volunteer force, and at the same time, they’re trying to tell people who are qualified to serve that they’re not. And you’re absolutely right to call out that throughout history, the military has been one of the first places for marginalized communities to reach a level of equality. It’s also been one of the first places that we have had to face policy decisions about those marginalized communities, whether we look at slaves in the Civil War, whether we look at women in World War Two, when we look at the reverse of don’t ask, don’t tell. I was in Kuwait in 2011 when don’t ask, don’t tell was reversed. I was the first time that I was told that who I was wasn’t a factor in my qualifications to serve. And each of those reversals of an unfair policy gave an opportunity for equality. So reversing those policies removes a level of equality for trans Americans.

[00:19:04] So what do you think is the response here? What can be done?

[00:19:07] That’s a tough question. So I’m a former infantry soldier, so I look at this from an infantry mindset and we’re in a bit of a defense position right now. We’re preparing for what we know is potentially coming at us. And what that means is that we have to do a lot of things. On Modern Military Association’s website. I write stories of trans servicemembers that are doing valorous things. We have to tell stories of trans Americans who are doing amazing things to build empathy. We have to shore up our allies, whether it be in Congress or in the nonprofit spaces or in corporate America, and make sure that we cherish those ally ships. We have to protect ourselves and do what we need to do for our individual health. We know that our community, when we’re attacked, we can feel alone and isolated. We need to make sure that we strengthen our communities. And we need to be prepared for the opportunities when they come because the opportunities are going to come down for us.

[00:20:04] I mean, even though we know what they’re going to do on this, we don’t know how implacable they’re going to be. And so with that. Right. How how far are they going to go and how tough are they’re going to be in going there? And how do they write the rules in a way that may or may not allow for litigation or for, you know, any type of accommodation? Those are all unknowns, because the executive order will have to be translated into actual regulations and orders that are issued by the Department of Defense. So we’ll have to see. But I also think that you make a really good point around the hopeful nature, which is that. At some point every offensive. Right. And this is an offensive. This is a picture of energy focused energy against trans people. At some point, it runs out of energy, every single one. And that in those moments, that’s when you have the opportunity to be able to make gains. And I think kind of this combination that you’re describing of being on defense, but then waiting and exploiting any opportunities that arise, is that only informed by your military training but just is kind of the way that strategy unfolds and something that everyone I think can can maybe hold on to and see what’s possible.

[00:21:24] You know, the goal here feels like it’s to force us back into the dark, the differences that we’ve already been in the light. And once you’ve felt the light on your face, you can’t go back. And that spirit is something that they just can’t stop.

[00:21:43] Lastly, I just want to hear from you a message for a trans service member serving in the military right now who may not have reached out to you or your organization, who may even be hiding the fact that they are trans from all but a few of their closest comrades in the military who feel alone, who don’t know what they should do in this moment? Because I know that a lot of people listen to this podcast who aren’t able to be out. I mean, for example, we hear from trans rural people all the time who listen to this podcast who are not necessarily out in the places where they live and work, but who do listen to this podcast and see it as an essential way for them to be themselves, even if it just comes through their headphones. So I’m just wondering what you would say to those who were listening in that position in the military in this moment.

[00:22:38] You know, the first thing is that you have to take care of yourself. Just as the trans community faces struggles with depression. The military community faces struggles with depression and has historically high rates of depression and stigmas around mental health. So the first thing is that you have to take care of yourself because we need you in the fight one way or the other. So that’s vital. The second thing I would tell anybody who’s struggling is that community is vital. Find a community. Find a group of people who can help you to understand your options, help you to understand policies, who can help you to make decisions about what’s right for you and get you to the right resources. Thirdly, get involved. This fight is coming whether we like it or not. It’s going to come to us and we’re not going to have a choice but to deal with it. So right now is the time to figure out what you can do and what you need to do, whether it’s changing your identity documents, whether it’s taking care of making sure that you have medical access, whether it’s getting involved with a group that reaches out to your local congressmen, whether it’s getting involved in a support group, it’s time to do something.

[00:23:58] Well, I think that that’s solid advice if you are in the military or not as a trans person. We’re going to need each other. And so find the people that you can trust and who believe in you and hold on to them and support them as they support you in whatever you’re going through. And of course, people can always find a way to reach out to you, to reach out to Spada. And that information will be in our show notes. I just want to thank you for speaking up and speaking out and serving as a resource for people who may feel and find themselves without a voice. And sadly, I don’t think that this will be the last time that we speak to you about this. And I hope that you will feel free to come back.

[00:24:41] Yeah, I’m looking forward to speaking to you again, even if we don’t look forward to the subject matter.

[00:24:46] Patricia, thank you so much for your ongoing service to our community.

[00:24:51] Thank you, Mark.

[00:24:52] That was former infantryman and current advocate Patricia King. And. I’m glad to welcome back to the show the executive director of Glisten. Melanie Willingham. Jagger’s sitting at the helm of Glass, and Melanie has been a tireless advocate for LGBTQ students across the country. Their vision for a safe and affirming K-through-12 education system is rooted in years of experience in social movement organizing and curriculum designed in full transparency. And the vice chair of the board Eteplirsen, Melanie has dedicated themselves to racial, gender and disability justice throughout their career. Before joining Allison in 2019, they served as the program associate director of the Worker Institute at Cornell University’s School of Industrial and Labor Relations. She also spent four years as the board chair of the Audre Lorde Project in New York City. Melanie, thank you so much for coming back on the show. Really appreciate it.

[00:26:07] Happy to be here. I was saying earlier that I don’t think I’ve ever been a friend of a podcast, but I feel like a friend of the pod to translate. So that’s fun.

[00:26:14] Yes. Yes. Well, you are. You are that. Thank you so much for coming back. I’m glad to have you on because I think it’s very clear that in the sights of the Trump administration are the ability of kids to be themselves oral with respect to gender affirming care and the ability of schools to be safe and to meet the needs of all kids, but specifically in this case, trans kids. And we can see that with the rewriting of Title nine around, you know, sports and bathrooms and all the rest of it that they are going after. But we know that it will be much broader than that because it’s laid out in Project 2025. So I’m wondering for you, how are you coming into this moment, realizing that the people that you serve and the organization that you run are going to be kind of at the center of everything that’s going to happen?

[00:27:17] Yeah, that’s a great question. I think at the heart of all of this, I think about the answer to this and in a couple of ways. One, I think we ought to understand Project 2025 as a first year work plan. This is not theoretical. We are not overreacting by taking them at their word. I think we ought to take them exactly at their word and understand that they will do exactly what they are able to get away with, what they’re able to push through. And they won’t stop until we stop them. That’s part one, I think. Part two. Listen, we work in service. We are in deep relationship, right, for the purpose of ensuring that LGBTQ young people can go to school and be safe when they’re there. And by safety, I really mean belonging, right? That they can go be a full citizen at school, participate in all parts of school life with no restrictions, just like any other person there. What? That’s one part of what’s really important. The other part of that equation that’s important is that kids who are not queer and trans get to see queer and trans kids at their schools involved in all parts of school life. And they understand that the expectation is that no one is excluded. So that’s who we are. Listen, that’s what we do. And and I think that that remit never changes. This is a moment that’s closer to 1990 than we have been probably in 35 years.

[00:28:37] How do you mean?

[00:28:38] We were founded in 1990, right? This political moment is likely, I think, the closest politically to where we were at our founding, whereas the humanity, the existence of queer and trans young people specifically when it comes to our mission, is in question. Are they really trans kids? Are they really gay kids? Do they exist? And Arthur exists. And so Adkerson we come back to our roots at the heart of this. We’ve been doing this since 1990. We know our kids exist. We know that we exist to help support them and to ensure they can be successful.

[00:29:13] Yeah, that’s a really interesting point. When you say that for Glisten, it’s like going back to your roots in 1990, because as you said, it was a time when it was the existence of LGBTQ kids and people, specifically gay and lesbian at that time, whether or not it was real and the echoes are the same because many of the organizations are the same that are pushing this particular line. And I’m wondering if you can just help tell some of our listeners who may not remember 1990 or were alive in 1990 and, you know, look at it as a golden era of hip hop, for example, like aren’t thinking about the political environment. What was the political environment and what were the questions that were at work there, such as, you know, gays in the military and other things?

[00:30:00] Yeah. Well, I’ll speak specifically from Gleason’s purview, and I would. Invite our listeners to come in to a time machine with me. We’ll go back to the 90s. You’ll recognize it because there will be polka dots and acid washed jeans. It’ll be it’s a lot of fun. There’s good music, a whole bunch of shenanigans are happening to laugh crew and big like uncle. There’s all kinds of stuff that’s happening in every direction. And what’s also true is that in half of the country, it was still illegal to be gay. Over half of the country. That’s part one. Part two. You were specifically target to be ostracized, potentially be fired from your job, to be excluded from housing opportunities, employment opportunities, etc.. If it was thoughts or you were accused or you were, it was proven to be true that you were gay. What’s also true specifically around schools is that bullying was understood as an immutable fact of life and that you shouldn’t be gay. But if you were, maybe bullying would help solve that problem, quote unquote, further, Right. Bullying was understood as this immutable fact of life when it came to young people bullying each other and also adults. So this is what I mean when I talk about the echoes from the past, what actually feels the same or most similar in this moment to our founding. It’s like educators and young people are getting into the game, right? The incorrect message that we are telling our young people right now in schools is similar to what we told them in the 1990s, which was, you believe someone else to avert the attention from you, that if you want to be included, you got to figure out who to exclude. You figure out who was going to pay that cost of exclusion. So it is not you. And you’ve heard me say this before, right? But like education is a cornerstone of democracy. We teach young people how we do things in this country and in the world, and that’s the purpose of the education system. So when we are teaching them, instead of that, belonging is a right that everyone has, instead of everyone who is here, deserves respect, instead of people who are here, are part of this community and in this community, everyone is welcome everywhere that’s in the classroom, you see yourself in your community and the curriculum that’s in the hallways, you’re not getting pushed into a locker like Skeeter was, right? You are able to use the bathroom because that’s what bodies need to do. You’re able to play with your peers and friends and sometimes frenemies on the playground, on the court. You’re able to be good at some stuff and bad at some stuff because that’s what we do here, right? That’s what we believe education should be. And the other side beside it doesn’t believe that queer and trans people have a right to exist in public life. I also believe that queer and trans children not exist. If they do, they believe that any home or any classroom that sees them and affirms them that it is abusive, that acceptance of who they are by their parent or by their teacher or by any caring adult by their doctor, is being labeled as abuse by an administration and a resurgent right wing that does not see dignity or belonging for people like us and their future of this country that is at the core anti-democratic, but more so to the point of this conversation. It is for closing actually on the future of our democracy, because it’s preventing young people from understanding. Right? It’s preventing people from their birthright in this country, which is to be a part of this collective, to have a space in it, to be able to live with dignity and to be able to shape the future of where we are going together.

[00:33:39] So on that particular point, can you talk about and frame, because I think that this will answer a lot of people’s questions about why the administration is targeting trans kids and why they are targeting education through attacks on trans kids and the people that support them and the places that support them. But then this conversation around democracy and the preservation of democracy, because one of the things that we can say is that the incoming administration are authoritarian and are authoritarian in nature. Authoritarians don’t like democracy. So how do you see the attack on kids and education overall as this Democratic assault using the conversation around trans existence? Can you just unpack that a little bit?

[00:34:26] Yeah, totally. At the heart of this is belonging, right? In a democracy, the people who belong in a democracy are the people who are in the democracy. What’s also core here is the connection that people have, right? That I know you enough for us to talk. You and I know each other. And this is the broader you and I. You and I know each other in a democracy enough to be in agreement to flag where there is disagreement or misalignment and to work through that, where as exclusion is the tool of autocrats and dictators. Right. Who belongs in public life, excluding what you can learn in school, excluding what health care you are able to get from the system under the guidance of your doctor and excluding coming into your home and seeking to force parents to exclude their children from the love and protection and comfort of their home, or.

[00:35:27] Lose those kids.

[00:35:28] Or lose your children. Right. The exclusion of children from that home, if it is accepting and the exclusion of young people from acceptance by those who love them.

[00:35:36] That’s right.

[00:35:37] So when we’re talking about democracy and I and, you know, it’s on the other side of the US election and having heard the drumbeat for a really long time and I think we lost the plot to an extent, the idea of what democracy is, it’s like a fish talking about the water that they’re swimming in, right? The fish will know when the water is dirty or when there’s less water than there was before or the quality of the water, what’s available in the water. But it’s hard to kind of talk about the water on its own. Right. And so I think that that’s as a collective, we have lost the rigor and the clarity of what democracy actually is. We confuse our political system with our economic system. We confuse our freedom with what our purchasing power can get us. You know, we have it all. We have it all twisted. But I think at the heart of at the heart of all this, education is where young people learn the rules of the road. They learn that when you have a problem, you solve it. They learn that you put that where there are rules and guidelines and guardrails in place. We rely on them. We figure out how to repair harm. We learn. We go through the uncomfortable position of not knowing a thing. Being told something and then having to understand it so that we know it’s true. That’s all a difficult process. It is not fun being at school. And it’s not only not fun because the bad stuff that happens sometimes, but it’s also not fun because the process of learning is one that is rigorous and uncomfortable. If we’re doing it right and we can get comfortable in that. There are lots of people who do, and it is an inherently uncomfortable process because we are being drawn out of ourselves, drawn out of what I think in this little, you know, bright idea factory that sits on top of my shoulders and it has to rub up against the real world. And so when our thoughts, ideas come into contact with other people and facts and have to get rolled around there, that’s the part of it that is core to democracy. We have to be learning what is true, What is the world, who is in the world? What are the true problems? What are the conditions? How did we get here and now what do we do?

[00:37:43] Yeah, no, I think that that’s right. I think that’s also the other thing about schools in education with regards to democracy and in this case a form of direct democracy in terms of the lowest level of active participation in our schools and school boards, because the education system is still where nine out of ten people in this country are educated. Right. And so that means that nine out of ten people are invested and have direct contact with schools and with the shift and the public goods in this country, that is to say things that we all share in common, no matter who we are, economic background, etc.. Schools are the last part of it. And so, you know, that would make sense that if you are attempting to be an authoritarian, that you would turn your gaze on schools at some point. One of the things that occurs to me, though, is within that, like given the scope of like what they’re trying to do and the fact that in your eyes, this is an attack on democracy, what do you see as the response to some of the biggest fights that they have put on the table? And how is this in responding? You know, like not only the bureaucratic and legal changes that we kind of touched upon here. Title nine is a big one, threatening school funding if people don’t implement anti-trans policies, kind of all that stuff. And in addition to that, though, you know, the change environment and the way it’s leading to attacks on teachers, attacks on administrators, attacks on other school board members who are supportive on trans people and running school board members off of various school boards if they don’t toe the line within that. Like, what do you see as kind of the biggest challenges and how is Glisten mobilizing itself to respond?

[00:39:31] Yeah. So we’re talking about the attacks on supports for queer and trans young people that we should anticipate, particularly in schools. We have to understand who the front line is of those who are on their sides who are seeking to protect them. All right. These are precarious workers. The people who you have to educate your children from 8 a.m. in the morning until 2 p.m. in the evening. Also have to buy most of the supplies for a classroom out of their own pocket. Right. Have to decorate their classroom and build this environment where they feel like every young person can learn to see. We are lucky to have those people. We are lucky to have those people and they are going to be the first people to be flushed out of the system in order to remove the immune system that exists to ensure that every single young person belongs, can be safe, can learn. Right. And the environment that they need. So I think that’s what I would say around framing of attacks and the challenges that we’re facing. And I would say the glistens understanding of this moment is that we have to get clear. We have to make sure that young people understand that they belong. So there’s a level of knowing your rights. There’s a level of safety planning and connection to their own power that’s critical in this moment. It’s the same with educators. It’s the same with parents. I do want to say that folks should go to glisten.org/rise up to sign the rise up pledge. Right. That says that you are taking the pledge to show up and support publicly LGBTQ plus youth with a particular focus on queer and trans young people. I often talk about like our kids are not rainbow colored stick figures, right? They are not. And all of them are not the multi haired little cis gender white kid that goes to a really well-funded school who behaves like you want them to behave, presents how you want them to present. Our kids are everywhere. Our kids are everything. And it takes all of us to say we are going to support them in order for them to know that they can be who they are, that who they are belongs here. So I would encourage folks to go to glisten.org/rise up and sign the pledge. You’ll see a map that shows where everyone else who has signed the pledge is located across this country. That’s part one. And I say that here both is a call to action, but also as a reminder that the fight is in schools and the fight is outside of schools also. Right. So what we at Glisten are doing is reorienting ourselves and looking to reorient our people for the understanding that we have to be in connection with each other, in relationship with each other, to build safety and to build power. And that, I think, is our orientation in this immediate term. And the last thing I think is for us to understand clearly our opposition and what they have and what they don’t have. And that clear assessment is going to put us in the best position to figure out what is right for us to do in any given moment. And I would say here that our opposition currently has all three branches of the federal government. Our opposition currently has, I believe, is 24 to 26 right states that are held, that are vocally anti LGBTQ plus specifically anti-trans. We have to understand our landscape to understand where the opportunities are and where they aren’t. So I think it’s important for us to hold this understanding, particularly in this first hundred days, where we understand that their strategy is and awe. I was talking with someone the other day and they said, you know, we could probably anticipate right in the kind of first batch of executive orders in the first hundred days, we should expect something like the Dobbs decision to come out on a regular basis over and over and over again. Right. These decisions that annihilate what we understand as cannon, what we understand is fundamental and core to who we are and what is possible and what is guaranteed to us in this country in this moment. My advice is that we stay close to each other and stay grounded. What our enemies do that we understand they have the power to do and we can anticipate is coming. It is not our business. It is not our role. It is not a good use of our time. Our nerves are nervous system to be wound up by all the foolishness that they’re going to do. What we have to understand is that we watch the environment. We watch the conditions for our opportunity. What are we going to do? What they’re going to do is their business. We can anticipate it. We keep ourselves safe. We stay grounded. We stay connected to each other, and we watch for opportunities to do what we need to do in that. And I think that that’s really at the core, honestly, of the first half of this year. It’s about understanding clearly who are enemy is where they are, what they’re going to do and what we have to do to keep ourselves safe, to keep ourselves connected on the interpersonal level, and then also where our opportunities are to push back, to slow down, frankly, to undermine the discriminatory and. Hateful policies that are going to be coming out. How do we find our friends in the system and help them help the folks who are at the front line who are holding space for our children?

[00:44:56] Yeah, I think what’s interesting is that Steve Bannon, who is essentially the Trump worlds connection between political ideology and the paramilitary movement and groups, kind of runs that interface and was in the Trump White House during the first term, said that if the first administration were a shock and I the new Trump administration, he told Politico recently, will be days of thunder. So you’re you’re totally right about that. My last question for you is one where we know that the people in the places that are standing up to the things that that world cares about, they’re going to come under attack. And I wanted you to just talk a little bit about what you learned from Glisten coming under sustained attack in 2023 from that entire suite of but authoritarian and Christian nationalist organizations online and elsewhere. Kind of the impact that it had on the organization and what you think that other people in places need to learn about how to respond to that part of what’s coming.

[00:46:10] I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this. I do. And the attack that we came under was in 2022. It was in May of 2020. My gosh.

S[00:46:18] I mean, you know, time compressed.

[00:46:20] Yeah. Yeah. So and we saw ourselves beginning to trend on the dark Web. And this is Friday afternoon going into the Memorial Day weekend. So, like, imagine an empty office. Very few people on. And this really important critical thing starts to break. We were lucky to have put many things in place that we needed to. We saw some of this coming. You know, at that time and 2022, it was like the second year in a row that, you know, more than 400 more than 500 anti LGBTQ plus bills were being passed all over the country on the heels of a wave of legislation that required inclusive curriculum be included in states California, Nevada, New Jersey, among many others. West Virginia, I think Pennsylvania, right. There was a there was first a sweep of inclusive curricular laws that happened and then there was this backlash. And we glisson part of a larger kind of movement, organization, landscape, like many others, received a whole lot of corporate funding. And what we saw and this attack was that right wing Christian nationalists, anti LGBTQ plus trolls and bots and weirdos were breaking through, right? They were on the Dark Web, 1814, Truth, social, etc. broke through to Breitbart, laundered it enough for Fox News and The New York Post. And that’s when it broke through. And within the next 12 hours, the dark Web was looking for my address, was looking to string me up, Right. There were, you know, hateful calls that were coming in for weeks and months afterwards. And at least one of those calls rose to the level of importance to get the FBI involved because the threats were credible enough. And so what we understood then, we were about 80% batten down. What we understood then was what is critical? What’s the most critical thing to have in place is to not be a soft target. And by that I mean like there’s a digital hygiene that we should all do, but there’s a level of hygiene in the digital space, a level of security, situational awareness in the physical space that we have to remain diligent about. And when you are right tight enough, secure enough, then it will at least take them more resources to come at you than it would for them versus you being easy pickings. And I would say that that’s actually number one, that’s the most important thing in this moment, is that we will not allow ourselves or our communities or our children to be easy pickings. I think that the other thing that we learned is that we have to be diligent in how we do our work. And by that I mean who we do our work with, how we are in relationship, how we know the people who are at tables in conversations with us. You know, I think what the moment was of us kind of shouting from the rooftops, like, what needs to happen and who’s that doing it right and who needs to get on line if we’re going to like that moment has passed. We are in a moment where it is it is about relationships, is about what you can do, who knows you and it don’t nobody know you and nobody knows where you come from. And why are you here? Who are you again? Right. It’s actually worth us doing the checking of who we are in conversation and relationship with to ensure that we are truly on the same side. And the second thing that we’ve learned that’s helpful from that experience really is that any ground you seed. You won’t get back. It doesn’t actually help you to get out of the line of fire by ducking and dodging and just giving up like, okay, fire will back away from you. Fill in the blank because you’ll never see that ground again. Whatever you see to your opposition, they will take and they will plant themselves and they will come at you. They will see it will not stop their attacks. And so I think that the advice in all of this is to be clear about where you stand. Defend it, defend it, and make them take it from you. But don’t don’t give it to them and don’t do their work for them and call for help when you need help defending the ground that you’re on. And I think that I think I started out here in the top of this conversation saying that, you know, what’s coming is going to be really difficult and we actually have to be together, not just theoretically. We have to actually be in alignment. We have to be together on what we are trying to do and how we’re going to get there. Each of us has different roles, but we if none of us are disposable, then that both takes like, I’ve got your back, you’ve got mine. But it actually also takes some real struggle to make sure that we are actually aligned and not just theoretically, because these are not theoretical times. These are not theoretical times. And as a result, to any extent to which we are not clear, the other side is going to clarify it for us and we’ll be on our back foot if suddenly I have to figure out, maybe I actually don’t agree with this other person or this this way of thinking or this organization. And now we are behind the advances of our opposition.

[00:51:26] Well, Melanie, thank you so much for joining us and for sharing kind of your insights and experiences. I think that it’s going to be really useful as people think about what has happened, what is happening and what will happen. Thank you so much.

[00:51:41] Yeah, thanks for having me.

[00:51:43] That was the executive director of Glisten, Melanie Willingham. Charters. Thank you so much for joining me on the Trans podcast. Now, listen all the way through the end of the show for something extra special. Thanks to Al though. First up for leaving this comment on Spotify. Hope your podcast is monumental and helping my understanding of what’s happening within our community. Thank you. You provide a safe space for and via trans people when it comes to covering news about us. Wow. Thank you so much for that comment. And if you want to support our show, then go right now. Head on over to leave your five star review on Apple Podcasts or leave a comment on Spotify like our you might just hear it on the show. The TransLash podcast is produced by TransLash Media. The transaction team includes Oliver-Ash Klein and Aubrey Callaway. Xander Adams is our senior sound engineer and a contributing producer. The show gets to your ears with the help of our social media team, including Morgan Asprey. The music you heard was composed by Ben Draghi and also courtesy of Zach Records. This episode was engineered by Lucy Liddle. The transition podcast is made possible by the support of foundations and listeners like us. So what I’m looking forward to is that later today, the day that this show drops, which is Thursday, January 23rd, I will be leading a panel discussion about creating change with thousands of members of our community have come together, which is especially powerful right after the inauguration of Trump earlier this week to lead a panel discussion on fascism and the link between fascism and its focus and obsession on gender identity. So if you’re not able to see it live because you’re not creating change, I think that there’s a remote option. If you are there, I hope that you will come to this plenary session. I think it’s going to be really powerful and important to discuss this right now. So hope to see you there.