Chani Nicholas and Trans Astrology

Speaker 1 [00:00:09] Hey fam, it’s me, Imara. Welcome to the TransLash Podcast, a show where we tell trans stories to save trans lives. Astrology is an ancient tool of self-discovery and cosmic connection. So it’s no surprise that for many trans people, it offers a language to understand who we actually are and where we might be going. In fact, throughout human history, trans and queer people were seen to be instrumental to understanding the link between the stars and humanity. And in this world that we’re in right now that is increasingly chaotic and unpredictable, especially for our community, the popularity and use of astrology seems to be more popular than ever. So today I’ll be digging into what role the planets and the rest of the cosmos play in helping us navigate transitions and liberation as well as to serve as a tool for empowerment, affirmation, and healing. First, world-famous astrologer, Chani Nicholas, She stops by to discuss what astrology actually is and isn’t, and she lends her preeminent skills to do a live reading of my own birth chart.

Speaker 2 [00:01:20] So we know that because you’re ruled by Mars, you’re a warrior. You’re a fighter. You’re somebody who’s like, all right, give me a mission and I’ll go in and I will make sure I get the job done.

Speaker 1 [00:01:32] Then I’m joined by astrologer Michael J. Morris, who talks through the intimate connection between trans identity and astrology.

Speaker 3 [00:01:40] And I think as queer people, as trans people, finding some sort of language or practice that acknowledges and recognizes that breadth and depth of complexity, I think can feel really affirming.

Speaker 1 [00:01:57] But before we get to these cosmic connections, let’s start out as always with some trans joy. Astrology is all about the joy of finding greater awareness about who we are, and why we may be here, and what we might become. Marisol Vibración is a self-described pharaoh trans mystic whose readings help people from all walks of life embrace their full selves. She’s not just an astrologer, though. Marisol also creates spaces for healing and expression as a yoga teacher, spiritual coach and drag performer. Here she is to tell us more about her astrology practice.

Speaker 4 [00:02:55] You know, I’ve learned over time to realize that my transness shows up in waves, in chapters, in phases. It’s telling a story. It’s not just the static thing that I’m embodying. The nature of the planet’s cyclical movement evokes the same energy throughout the life. There will be moments in time where, you know, on an astrological level, perhaps my Leo Mars is being more stimulated, so I’m more out in the spotlight. My more, you know action-oriented self is on display. than maybe other times where my cancer moon is what’s really being stimulated and I feel really sensitive and softer spoken and emotional. So too, there are these fem components to me, there’s these mass components to be, there’s this non-binary components and there are this agender components to mean that all swirl in the beautiful melting pot that is me. The complexity that we know ourselves to wield already is pictorialized in astrology in a really fascinating way.

Speaker 1 [00:03:51] Marisol, you are trans joy. Do you know someone like Marisol who embodies trans joy? Well, then send us an email, why don’t you, at trans slash underscore podcast at transslash.org and make sure to include their name, contact information, and why you think they should get a shout out in a future trans joy segment. You might just hear me read it out on air. In fact, you probably will. I’m so excited to get into this conversation and reading with one of the most influential astrologers of our time, if not the most influence astrologer of our times, Chani Nicholas. Chani has been helping people use astrology as a tool of empowerment for over 20 years. Her approach is deeply rooted in queerness, social justice, and collective healing. She is the co-founder and president of ChaniApp, one of most popular astrology resources out there right now. Chani is also the author of the New York Times bestselling book, You Were Born For This, Astrology for Radical Acceptance. Her work has been featured everywhere, from Rolling Stone to The New Yorker and even Netflix. And I’m so excited that in addition to talking all things astrology, she has generously offered to do a live reading for me today. Yep, you heard that right. Chani, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. I mean, for everyone who is into astrology, which is probably 99.9% of our audience, this is, you know, talking to astrology royalty here. So just really appreciate you coming on. Thanks for having me. So I first heard about you maybe seven years ago when the person I was dating at that time, who… is trans, like, every morning would wake up and say, well, Chani says this and Chani said that. And I was like, who is this third person literally in my relationship, like, that I get to speak to additionally every morning? So you mean so much to people.

Speaker 5 [00:06:03] AKA who is this bitch, why is she in my relationship? in my relationship. Right, right.

Speaker 1 [00:06:06] Literally in my bed. I don’t know. Right? Did not ask for this. Listen. I think I am the third.

Speaker 2 [00:06:12] in a lot of situations and I’m sorry about it.

Speaker 1 [00:06:17] So you mean a lot to people. I am wondering what astrology has meant to you and for your life.

Speaker 2 [00:06:26] You know, I think that with any wisdom tradition that comes along your path or any of your own ancestral traditions that you might have been given or that maybe even you discover, I think when you discover something that wants to come through you, there is a type of self-revelation that happens. And so I can say that all good things in my life came through and are intertwined with my practice of astrology. So it’s so embedded into everything that has brought me so much joy and so much satisfaction and a sense of purpose in my life and in the world. And that was really, that was a long time coming for me. So it is, it’s kind of like a place for me to be and for me to articulate all the different things of myself that I want to articulate or want to express, or it’s a vehicle for me to do all the things that I wanna do. And it’s something that also came really naturally to me, which was something I took for granted really early on. And I think a lot of us take for granted what comes naturally to us or what we’re good at, or like our particular magic. It’s especially, you know. if you have been shunned for something in your life and it’s connected to your talent, it’s hard to actually really appreciate it and say like, no, no this is something I need to invest in, I need develop, I need double down on. And when I finally did that in my life, my life started to work in a way that was really profoundly different than how it had worked up until that point.

Speaker 1 [00:08:20] I mean, in so many ways, you just described like the trans experience, right? So then that makes sense that like, since that’s a part of the inspiration for your own life, that the energy that you create attracts so many people who have had to go through that type of journey, regardless of what that is. So it totally tracks. What’s interesting to me is that even though you have these gifts, and as you say, are a part of this deep wisdom tradition, a lot of people would say, Well, you know, since Chani does astrology. she probably always knew that she was going to be an astrologer and always knew that, you know, in many ways would be a household name to many. Can you just talk about what astrology does and does not give us in terms of our life’s purpose and understanding? Like we still, there’s a big role for us.

Speaker 2 [00:09:07] you have to do all the work. It will show you the colors and the hues and the textures and the shape of things. It’ll show you kind of where you’re located in life or what tracks will work out well for you. And that’s huge. That’s a huge boon or gift that you can receive from your chart. And you have to do all of the work. You have to all of study. You have do all the self-development. You have take all of risks. You have make all the mistakes. You have look like a fool. You have be willing to win. You have all the L’s. You have humiliated. You have in the whole process of it, right? Like someone, a teacher can come along or a mentor can come a long or someone you look up to can come long and say like, wow, you’re really good at this thing. I think you should try it. but you’re the one who has to try it. You’re the ones that has to make the investment and you’re one that has do all of the boring, grueling work of developing this thing in you. And that’s really where the magic is. The magic is in all of little tiny things that you do every day that you probably, 90% of the time, don’t wanna do. But you do it because you’re engaged in developing this part of yourself or you’re engage with the relationship to this. other part of you or to your talent or to a tradition or to some aspect of whatever it is you’re working on.

Speaker 1 [00:10:31] I think that this is such an important point, right? That certain people are like, that your chart is the beginning, middle, and end of your entire story. But as you’re saying, like, there’s a huge part of this that where you are in the story, right, and ultimately all of the choices and all the fulfillment and all of learnings and the revelations are things that you have to bring energy into.

Speaker 2 [00:10:55] Yeah. And you’re the main character. So every main character has to go through highs and lows, has to risk everything. I think part of the information age that we’re living in, part of the downside of it, is that we can go online and learn anything. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that we have integrated it and that we understand how to work with it and that we haven’t suffered with it. You have to suffer with things that you really want to make happen. You have to celebrate in them and enjoy them and all the beauty and all of the sweetness. But there’s a certain amount of suffering too that’s really important to know how to do. And I do think that that’s lacking in a lot of us when we consume too much knowledge, when we can assume passively too many social media posts and we’re consuming too much of other people’s labor instead of. being like, okay, great, I’ve learned a lot and I should always learn, but then I have to struggle with my own interpretation of this. I have just struggle with building something for myself. I have suffered through the consequences and the pitfalls and the self-doubt and all of that. That’s such an important part.

Speaker 1 [00:12:07] I think, yes, that’s exactly right. It reminds me of this line from the Avatar movie, which, okay, collective grown, but still there’s some good stuff in it.

Speaker 2 [00:12:15] It’s okay, it’s okay. We can take what we like and leave the rest.

Speaker 1 [00:12:18] Indeed, that’s life. And so then the one person says like, well, how will I know what is meant for me? And the person said, it’s easy because it’ll try to kill you first.

Speaker 2 [00:12:30] Exactly.

Speaker 1 [00:12:33] So, and actually in many ways what you’re describing is the hero arc. And I don’t mean that cartoonish, but like the hero archetype in story is there because that really is life. Like these heroes that you read about, that whole thing, they all suffer. They all go to a moment of crisis. They all to a breaking point before they elevate to the next level. And it’s like if you can move through that crisis point, that’s the thing that springboards your life into. totally different place, right? Like it’s that, that crucible moment. In that vein of setup, I now get to have an incredible treat, which that you get to give me the results of my reading.

Speaker 2 [00:13:16] Okay, okay, where’s your Mars? Ah-ha, oh, love this for you. Okay, so we have a good time of birth for you, like meaning it’s a trusted source.

Speaker 1 [00:13:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s on my birth certificate. Okay, great, great. The 435.

Speaker 2 [00:13:32] Because you have a very early Aries rising, which means if you were born like five minutes earlier, it might be a Pisces rising. So the rising sign is so important because it sets up the architecture of the chart and it tells us everything about the map of your life. The planets tell us like where the hot spots are going to be and the signs tell us how you’re going to live the things out in your life, so if you’re an Aries Rising, You come in with a lot of energy. You come in bold, you come in with a starting, initiatory type of energy. And you have Mercury in the first house, which means you are, in part, meant to be an educator, someone who is articulating their ideas and thoughts and visions. You have Mercury right next to Vesta, which is this point, it’s an asteroid goddess, and she is. all about focus and she’s about dedication. And then you also have Mercury next to Chiron, which is the wounded healer. So it tells me that there’s something really focused and dedicated about the ways in which you articulate yourself and ways in which you account for things, the ways you study things. And that’s a really important part of your identity. You come in courageous, you come in bold, you come with energy, you comes in with warmth, you come on with a ton of courage. And you take very seriously your ability to think, articulate, critique, understand, dissect an idea or a topic, and then articulate it. So I love a podcast for you. The other thing that gives us this really important signature in your chart is that Mars rules your ascendant because Mars rules Aries. And so Mars becomes the planet that directs and steers your life in a certain direction. And you have Mars in Gemini. in the third house of communication. So it’s another indication that talking shit and talking theories and praxis and academia and like anything about learning is so imperative for your journey but also media in general because anything in Gemini is going to be really good with media. Anything in the Third House is going be really good with media, publishing, writing, teaching, all of that. And not only do you have Mercury, planet of communication, and delivering information and also translating information in the first house, which means it’s part of what we meet when we meet you, but also then the planet that steers the direction of your life is saying, hey, my style is to be chatty chatty and to be very curious and to look at things from a lot of different sides and to understand a tremendous amount of information. Are you the kind of person that sends all of your friends 17 podcasts and news articles and you have like periodicals and journals and like writing and reading is just a giant factor in your life?

Speaker 1 [00:16:34] Yeah, someone asked, like, tell me what you read every day, and I said, everything. It was so, it was so… Seventeen things at least. It was, so like, what are you talking about? Like, doesn’t everyone? I was like, I read everything, and I consume as much information as I can suck up every day. And it’s true, I probably read 50 or 60 things a day in terms of…

Speaker 2 [00:16:55] Yes. And that’s the other thing, is that your daily life has to be really varied. And like, your daily life and your routine and your neighborhood and like the people you chit chat with every day, like you need a lot of different conversations, you need a lot different coffee shops, you know, a lot of different like hangouts, you get a lot of different, like, cute little moments during the day. And you want to like bop around town and like do all the things. And there’s like a sense of like a flurry of events around you at all times, I would think. and that you are like part of that engine. You also have Mars and Venus together, which means that there’s something really sweet and likable and affectionate that comes through your edge because your Aries rising with Mercury in Aries. So there’s an edge there. There’s a heat there. And then you’ve got Mars in Gemini, which is like an edginess to the words, but you’ve Got Venus right there, which helps to sweeten the deal and it helps to like. deliver hard truths to people in a way that they can be like, OK, I like that, though. There’s something attractive in the way that you communicate because of your ability probably to include so much all of the time. There’s this vibe of wanting to never be too narrow-minded. It’s always open and curious. And also, the Gemini signature is to understand both sides of the spectrum meant to live in a third place. It’s to really understand like, okay, there’s this side and that side, there’s just this twin and this twin, and then there’s everything that exists in between. So not only do you have the ruler of your ascendant in Gemini and Venus, but you also have Saturn there. Which also tells me like you’re, again, a really good critic. Like there’s something here that’s like you need to be very, as curious as you need to be, you also wanna be very disciplined. Maybe about, again, how you learn what you learn, how you write, how say it. how you interpret the information, but also how you go about your day. I would say a good hefty routine will make you feel really held. I don’t know what your daily routine is, but I would like something that required some kind of dedication from you and some kind like discipline. Discipline is something you could really enjoy on a daily level.

Speaker 1 [00:19:11] It’s the key part of my life.

Speaker 2 [00:19:13] both in terms of how you learn and what you study and what do you do every day, is that what you mean?

Speaker 1 [00:19:17] Yeah, sense of purpose, I think, is the way I would say it.

Speaker 2 [00:19:20] Yes, yes. And so there’s a seriousness here about that too. And because you have both Mars and Saturn in this place, it also can denote difficulty or it can denote something. Like you have Venus there, which helps a lot. And the mere fact that you’re so likable can help you through a great many difficulties in life. And there could be something of a signature here where Again, it’s important for you to struggle with a text or struggle with an essay or struggle with the things that you wanna articulate. You could also be really good at working through challenging conversations with other people. Like you could be somebody who’s like an amazing negotiator or an amazing person that can hold like a conflict resolution process, because there’s like this need to go into hard conversations I think is what I wanna say.

Speaker 1 [00:20:10] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, no, that’s totally true.

Speaker 2 [00:20:14] You can hold the container, you can go for it. And then there’s this other thing, and I want to point to two things. The last times we’ve had Mars in Gemini, which again is one of the main signatures in your chart, the last time we had Mars and Gemini was in August. And all the things that were swirling around the DNC, there’s a lot we can say about a lot of things, but there were some very funny moments online. Like there was some really good. gotcha moments, there were some really funny memes. Even if you disagree with the whole thing, there was like a lot of comedy in the air in a really serious moment. And then the time before that, that Mars was in Gemini, was when Musty bought Twitter. And that was awful, but what was really Mars and Gemini’s signature was do you remember all of the absolute hilarity that ensued on Twitter? or like. the kinds of material that people were coming out with, the humor was just kind of like off the charts. So there’s this quality to Mars and Gemini that is, it’s kind of unhinged hilarity. And so there’s also that aspect to it. Like you have to also have like a vent or a release for being a little unhinge and a little, you know, like… so verbose, or it can just like kind of go so overboard, but it’s always entertaining. There’s like a hype to it. So you are also probably a pretty good hype person for…

Speaker 1 [00:21:45] One of my friends told me a long time ago that they think that I should do stand-up. Yes! Oh my God, please do stand up. It’s like a part of that. And one of the things that actually surprises people, and I think that it’s what you’re getting at, is like, you know, the edge and the seriousness can be there, but people who like know me or spend time with me, they always say that they’re totally surprised by how funny I am, like how I just, you, know, absolutely, you can, yeah.

Speaker 2 [00:22:11] Yeah, and it’s an important thing for you to have an outlet for. So I would love like an alter ego, like comedy, something, because again, for having such important signatures in Gemini, it’s good for you to have room for both sides and all the sides of self. Like it’s, it is good for it to be like, well, maybe this doesn’t match this, but that’s good me. Like it is nice for me to have like the range. Like what would happen if I did this kind of thing? So we’ve done all of that without even touching on your sun or moon. Because that’s how important the rising sign is, and that’s important the planet that rules your rising sign is. So we know that because you’re ruled by Mars, you’re a warrior. You’re a fighter. You’re somebody who’s like, all right, give me a mission, and I’ll go in, and I will make sure I get the job done. And again, you do it through words. You do it your communications. You do through being affectionate. You do you through being hardworking. You do do it being disciplined. You do all of those venues. but Your thing is to be like, okay, then this is the fight. Let’s go and let’s have fun and let bring everybody along and let celebrate and let see all the stuff, but that’s your planet. And then we find that you’re a Taurus sun and a Pisces moon, which is just like so sweet and so soft and so dreamy and loves naps and snacks. And like, so it’s a very different vibe. You’re two luminaries, your sun and moon are very different qualities. They’re way more like restful, they’re way more grounded, they are way more about, like your tourist son is like, okay, I’m gonna shine through my work. Like your work is so important for you to have a sense of identity, like how you build something long-term over time that’s gonna be like a monument, that’s going to be long-lasting, that’s something of substance is really important for to do. And also security and understanding, like, you know, okay, these are the things that I have and this is how I relate to my material life is really heightened in your chart and that’s gonna help you to shine. I want you to feel, I mean, obviously I want this for everybody, to feel like grounded in a financial way or grounded in the material way so that you can feel like you can relax and shine. And then you can be like your sturdy, reliable self and like best friend to everybody and like the pillar. of your community and like, you know, there’s that sense and Taurus is like, I will always be here. I will be here, I’ll always be there, you can rely on me. And a part of how you can really show up in that way is to make sure that you have the really cute little treats that you need, but also the like feeling of like, I can rest here, I can ground here, I have a good bank of resources available to me, whatever that means for you. and then you’re… This moon in Pisces, again, is so dreamy, it’s so sensitive, it is so porous, it so open. So for all of your like strength and fire and agility and like wordsmithiness and all of your Aries and Gemini stuff, you have this super sensitive Pisces moon that is in the 12th house of behind the scenes life. It’s also the 12 house of institutions and incarceration and understanding systems of incarceration or how we. psychically or physically lock people up or put them in the margins. And so your moon is like in a way I mean this sincerely like a Florence Nightingale kind of like I connect to the orphans, the strays, the folks that are on the margins and there’s a feeling of needing to pour your love out or your compassion out to… hopefully to self that feels that way, but also to folks that are lost in those kinds of systems or lost to those systems that we live within, being able to be connected to or do that kind of reach out to folks that might feel locked away or marginalized literally or figuratively is also like a key to how you find a sense of purpose in this world. and that doing something that is. absolutely not about you, but that is about bringing healing, bringing water to the parched, bringing nourishment to those that are lacking it is so essential to you. Kind of like being in your vibe. A pacifist man really needs to vibe, but for you, it’s like this heightened need to be of service.

Speaker 1 [00:26:49] Yeah, it’s so funny the Pisces moon always like shocks people because they’re like what because it doesn’t it’s hidden. It doesn’t It’s hidden that’s right. That’s right

Speaker 2 [00:26:58] They get, they meet the Aries first and they feel that Mars and they, you know, they’re like, okay, let’s go. But that Pisces moon is actually because you were born before the sun came up, but you were at night technically still. Your moon is your light leader, we say. And so your moon is more in charge of your life purpose and like leading your life than your sun is. So it doesn’t mean that you’re more Pisces than Taurus. It just means that. doing those acts of service and having a part of your work and your life be absolutely not about you, but being about showing up for how and what people need is so key to you feeling like you fulfilled your own purpose.

Speaker 1 [00:27:39] Yeah, it’s so true. Like, oh my God, this is beyond accurate. And as a master, you only saw it a few minutes ago. And you’re like, ding, ding ding ding, I got this, this who you are. I’m just going to print this transcript and just hand it out to anybody who wants to understand me. Here you go. I’m not even going to tell you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And let’s keep it moving, because I can’t do any better than this. People will not dispute it because it’ll have your name on it. It’ll be like, this is Cheney. Just shut up.

Speaker 2 [00:28:11] about me. I also want to say you have Jupiter right near the mid heaven, which is the highest part of your chart. And so there is, again, if I said it in the beginning with the Mercury Chiron, there is this real teacher quality to you. And I think as you develop into yourself and your life, and as we move into, God willing, older stages of our life, being that mentor and being that teacher and being that person who’s. I mean, you’re just really generous. Like there’s a mark that you put out in the world of generosity, of wisdom. And that’s also like an important piece of how you show up is to show up big, to show off expansive, to show out abundant. And then it’s like this other quality that’s like moving into mentorship and being available to folks that are younger and luster.

Speaker 1 [00:29:08] And all of those things are the antidote to selfishness, right? Which I really think is like the acid in our society right now. Yeah, it’s like the asset, right, like even the way that we do social media, like it’s all about, yeah, it is not good and it’s not how we build society and it is how we hold together that thing, right. That’s not, that’s not we got here just through that. My last question for you, it so funny because I’m like, oh, it has been so much about me, I have to turn it back to other people.

Speaker 6 [00:29:36] Hey

Speaker 1 [00:29:37] It’s been too much. It’s too much about me. Exactly what you were saying leads us right to a great place to sort of land our conversation today, which is that there’s so many people that do feel lost. There’s so people right now that do feel disoriented as never before. There’s people who do feel and are, in reality, being marginalized, being attacked, being undermined, being set upon, being preyed upon in this moment. And I’m wondering if you can tell us what astrology informs us right now about how to move through times like this, because people feel so ungrounded. So. So. What is, from an astrological point of view, kind of the counsel that you can give to everyone that I’m describing right now for how to get through this and how to maybe create something better?

Speaker 2 [00:30:29] 2025 is a year where there are astrological significations, one after the other after the other, of this being a game-changing year. And this being year where we’re moving into something that feels like a different world. 2025 is the year of departure. We’re departing from what we’ve known. We’re moving in to something else. Obviously, the evil villains have made their intentions very clear. So I think what I keep coming back to is that we have to understand beyond a shadow of a doubt our power to reshape the world at the same time that they are. And of course, they’re making it really difficult for us. That’s apparently their job. I don’t know why, but that’s what is so I’ll just accept that as reality, but our job is to say Okay, obviously we have to do everything to disrupt and to impede this. And at the same time, we have do everything in our power to recreate our lives from the inside out. Like, do you know your neighbors? Do you go to your friend’s party when you don’t want to? Do you make sure that if so and so needs a cup of sugar, you’re gonna give it to them? Do you make yourself uncomfortable for community? Are you actively building a social net? And it’s like an energetic whiplash because we’re going from COVID where we were isolated from each other, where we we’re removed from one another to this incoming fascist regime, which is like, okay, now we have to do all of the opposite. And so we have move through this odd, very strange point of tension of being so disconnected from one another to finding a way to come back into deep connection with each other and to be so committed to not needing it to be perfect. I cannot need you to be perfect.I cannot need to be convenient for me for us to survive this. It’s just basic human survival, like you said, throughout history. It’s only recent that we have nuclear families. It’s the only recent that people try to raise children alone. It’s all only recent that we do this isolation life and this rugged individualism. Really, really, really like a nanosecond in our human history. So we just have to like time travel and go back and receive the wisdom from generations and eons of living collectively, uncomfortably, imperfectly. but with a great amount of knowing that we’re not ever acting alone. Because if I think that I have to stop an ICE agent by myself and nobody else is gonna support me in it or I’m not gonna be able to call anybody for help, then I am gonna be terrified. But if I feel like, no, no. Everybody else here that’s not being harassed by this ICE agent will back me up and do more than me maybe. then I’m acting in a chorus. I’m in acting in unison. I’m act. And we need to know that we’re in this together, but that we will also, in the ways that we can, risk things together. Because that’s when we are like, oh, this is powerful. This is our power. And every single little tiny thing that we do is so important, and it’s so needed, and it so necessary. And I just want to encourage that in myself and in us all every day.

Speaker 1 [00:34:16] As you said, the key to getting through now is together. And that idea and the practice of togetherness actually has to start on the inside of us. Inside, yeah, yeah. Thank you so much. This was a beyond a treat. I have thoroughly enjoyed speaking to you and appreciate your generosity and your openness to this conversation and to the way that I reached out to you and your incredible response. Um, and right now I know that my ex is gagging, so that’s good. I mean, we’re friends, so it’s fine. Everybody gets along.

Speaker 2 [00:34:50] It’s a little healthy competition, it’s fine.

Speaker 1 [00:34:52] Listen, listen, I will, they can’t ever do anything that’s going to top this in their mind. So thank you so much for that in addition to everything else, you’ve given me a gold bar where that’s concerned.

Speaker 2 [00:35:06] Sending love to everybody.

Speaker 1 [00:35:08] Yes, yes, yes. Said with love. That was astrologer and author Chani Nicholas. I can’t wait to get into this conversation with Michael J. Morris. Michael is an astrologer, tarot reader, artist, writer, and educator who is deeply committed to healing and liberation. They began their consulting practice, Co-Witchcraft Offerings, in 2019 and have become a sought-after voice in the astrology world. Michael has presented their work at major events like the World Astrology Summit, The Queer Astrology Conference and the Astrologie and Climate Change Conference. just to name a few. Holding a PhD in dance studies, Michael brings a unique interdisciplinary perspective to their work. In addition to having over a decade of experience as a university professor, they also serve as a teaching assistant in Kelly Serti’s astrologer training program. Michael, thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 3 [00:36:21] me today. Thank you so much for inviting me into this conversation. I am so grateful for you and the work that you do in the world and I’m just very honored to be talking with you today.

Speaker 1 [00:36:31] Thank you, thank you so much. So first of all, can you tell us how you got into the world of professional astrology? There are so many people who are listening who have it as a hobby or they read horoscopes every day or people who have the various astrology apps on their phones. How did you know that you were making a transition from that hobby-ish type of engagement to actually more of something that was a discipline

Speaker 3 [00:37:01] for you. You know, I started reading horoscopes when I was in college, when I was in Jackson, Mississippi, doing my undergraduate degree in dance. Probably got my first astrology books, maybe my first or second year of college, just from like a used bookstore, trying to understand a little bit more about what is this system that we use to make meaning of our lives in these ways. And then it was when I in grad school working on my PhD that I started to go more deeply into astrology. I think whenever you’re focused with a lot of intensity on one thing or one subject area, sometimes it can feel good to have another place to go with your attention to study something else alongside the thing that you’re spending so many hours writing and teaching about. And that’s when I started really deepening my study of astrology and reading more books, started taking classes and workshops with people. And then it was around like maybe 2017, 2018, that I started realizing that a lot of the people around me, especially in my communities, especially queer and trans communities, were experiencing a lot of what I would describe as political despair after the 2016 election and a lot of anxiety and uncertainty. And it felt like I wanted to find a way to offer more resources to support folks, just in terms of like, how do we get through this life with each other? And so that’s when I launched my practice in 2019. I was still teaching in the university at that point. So astrology was like a side job, a thing that I did on the weekends. And then in 2021, my contract to the university was ending and I contemplated, do I want to go back on the job market? Do I wanna try to find another academic job? Or is it time to see if this work can become my full-time work? And that’s the choice that I made. And it has been my full time work ever since then.

Speaker 1 [00:38:54] Congratulations. Tell us about when you knew you were first drawn to astrology. So you told us that in 2016, you were really engaging and focused on reading horoscopes every day, but was that new or was that a continuation of an interest or an appeal that astrology had for you?

Speaker 3 [00:39:13] before then. I was raised in a deeply conservative evangelical Christian family in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, so there was no astrology in my life growing up. And towards the end of high school, or maybe like the middle of high School, I started exploring witchcraft traditions, reading about witchcraft in the libraries. And that was when I was really starting to contemplate that maybe my path was somewhere other than the pathways that had been given to me through. religion in which I was raised. And then I went to a Christian college for undergrad, and it was during undergrad that I started reading horoscopes and buying books about astrology just in a very superficial way, but starting to make connections between some of the things that I was practicing in terms of ritual and ceremony and other facets of witchcraft and recognizing that so many of those things are aligned with or coordinated with. the larger cycles of the world that we live in, the cycles of a season, the cycles of moon. And that’s really the basis of astrology is the observation of those kinds of cycles and making meaning of them. And so that’s when I think astrology kind of came in through witchcraft and ritual and those sorts of practices. And then it was over a decade later that I decided I really want to understand this more. I really wanna go deeply into the study of this. And again, at first, just for my own well-being just for my own ways of understanding myself and my place in the world. And then eventually that developed into considering was that something that I could offer to other people as well in order to support them and their well- being and how they’re making their way in the word.

Speaker 1 [00:40:58] a little bit about that journey that you made from being in a really evangelical household to going to the library to study witchcraft. Maybe this is why they hate libraries. To go to a library to basically read about and learn about witchcraft because so many people who grow up in an evangelical tradition, a lot of queer people, will leave religious tradition altogether, but you didn’t. You found a new set of practices and beliefs. And so can you talk a little bit about how you migrated from being an evangelical and raised that way to an interest in witchcraft and astrology?

Speaker 3 [00:41:38] astrology. My mother had a master’s degree in library science. She wasn’t working in libraries for most of my life, but she had an appreciation for libraries. And so almost every day after school, we would go to the library to do our homework, to do research for assignments at school. We learned the Dewey Decimal System pretty early on. And there is this sense that our parents were raising us. a couple of different ways. One was, here is this religious belief system that we want you to believe and to practice in as well. And at the same time, in libraries, there was this affirmation that you can go find answers for yourself. That’s what a library is there for, is this archive of knowledge, much of that knowledge in excess of the religious tradition in which I was raised. And so there were these… maybe sort of competing priorities in terms of the messages that we were being given in terms of we want you to believe these things, but also you can go find answers for yourself. So I think that orientation was part of what facilitated this transition out of Christianity or at the very least toward the exploration of witchcraft. And I did not understand it this way when I was in high school, but now looking back from my older and hopefully wiser. adult perspective, I think part of what was motivating me was that I was coming to an awareness of my own queerness, even at that age, and I think I felt deeply forbidden within the culture and within the family that I raised in. And I think instinctively I went in search of other forbidden places in order to find a sense of belonging, you know, within the Christianity that I was raised in. Witchcraft is probably one of the most forbidden places. And so I think that’s the direction that I moved in. And I found a lot of healing in that direction. I found the descriptions and affirmations of goddess spiritualities and goddess traditions that were not part of the world that I was raised in and gave a whole new language to the idea of the feminine or even the divine feminine. a lot of those traditions, there’s an affirmation that feminine or that divine feminine was part of me or I was part that as well. And then also there’s affirmation of the ways in which we are intrinsically a part of the more than human world as well, that the more-than-human is part of who I am, the air and the fire and the water and the earth and the sky above, that I am part of all of this and it is part me. And I think, again, I didn’t have this language back then. But I think those were some of the earliest experiences that I had for describing or acknowledging that there was more to me than I had been told, that I was capable of becoming more than I have been told I could be. And I didn’t know that that was going to be about sexuality and gender at that point, but I think that those were some of early experiences that started to give me just language and perspectives and understanding that facilitated that growth in those kinds of directions, that there’s more to me than only that, or more to be than only these static, rigid, binary categories that our culture perpetuates over and over again.

Speaker 1 [00:45:12] So it’s almost like for you that your queerness and interest in witchcraft and astrology are actually kind of go hand in hand, right? Definitely. Yeah, and I’m also just wondering like, people who believe like to believe. So I’m wondering if like that your fundamental understanding of belief as a way of life was also something that you were able to bring into the growing affirmations that you’re getting from witchcraft.

Speaker 3 [00:45:38] astrology? Maybe. You know, the way I was raised was very much through the language of belief. And now I think of my life more through the language of practice. It’s not so much about do I believe in astrology or not believe in astrology. It is more that I practice astrology. And it is a practice that has been practiced for thousands of years. And so, in the practice of astrology, I am participating in this ancient lineage. ultimately describe as – I guess this is really maybe one of my definitions of astrology – is that astrology is an ancient practice of making meaning of our lives here on earth with our observations of the sky. And there are countless cultural traditions for how we might do that, but it’s really in the practice of make meaning in ways that and generations and generations of people all over this planet. have made meaning of their lives in similar ways. And so for me now, I think it’s actually less about belief and more about being in a practice that connects me to not only myself and not only the earth and the sky and the more than human world, but also to this ancient lineage of practice and tradition. How did you get good at it? Oh, that’s so generous. I mean, I don’t know, I am as good at it as I am. I leave it up to the people I work with to decide whether I’m good at. But I think that there are several things that maybe shape that. Coming from a background in academia, having gone through undergraduate and graduate programs and then teaching in universities, I think I have been given a lot of tools for rigorous study like I know how to do that that’s something that you need in order to get through those kinds of institutions. And so I think I brought that same rigor to how I was studying astrology, but also I’ve been an artist for all of my adulthood and all of degrees are in dance. And so, I think that there is a way of approaching this material that is rigorous in terms of its technical consideration, but also acknowledges that ultimately what we are doing is a creative practice. We are in conversations with ourselves, or for me with clients, in which we are generating and co-creating meaning using the tools of this tradition. But it’s not a one-to-one kind of mathematics of if this is in the chart, then it means this. What I often say to students and to clients is that astrology is an inherently multivalent system, that any planet or any sign or any house in the chart. can mean any number of things. And so then in the process of making meaning, we’re working within certain parameters that we inherit from this ancient tradition, but we’re ultimately doing something creative. And so I think it’s probably at the combination of that rigorous study that I get from my academic background, but also the creative use of multivalent resources. that I get from my artistic practices that probably come together in a unique way to support my practice and what I can offer to other people in it. I also think I’ve spent a lot of my life talking. I was born a twin, conjoined twin, and spent most of our lives in our childhood just constantly talking to one another. And I think that that made both of us pretty practiced, if not skilled, at verbal processing. And so to be in conversation, with other people, which is ultimately my job. My day job is basically like, I talk to people about their lives and making meaning of it together in relation to the sky. But it’s ultimately a conversation. And I think being skilled or at the very least practiced in conversation is a big part of what it takes to be a consulting astrologer. In what way does you…

Speaker 1 [00:49:46] your queerness intersect, you think, with astrology? You know, what does being non-binary and queer as a person, like, what impact do you think it has on your astrology? Because you know, there’s a long running truth that in ancient societies, that people who are queer, what we would now call trans, often had unique spiritual roles and guiding roles within communities. So is that a tradition that you feel? you’re also practicing or is there a way in which it’s more personal for you and the way these things intersect?

Speaker 3 [00:50:21] You know, I think astrology is really uniquely situated to provide resources with which to understand our own complexity and nuance. And we don’t always immediately see that when people are first encountering astrology, like through horoscopes or through social media and things like that. There tends to be, especially right now, a hyper-focus on classifying people. according to their sun sign. Like, oh, you’re a Virgo, so you’re like this, or you’re Scorpio, so your like that. That’s not my favorite way of practicing astrology. I find that that is actually complicit with other social conventions and social norms with which we are constantly trying to categorize and classify people into relatively narrow, limited and limiting categories. But when we go deeper into what astrology… is or can be, what we find actually is that astrology is not a practice of organizing people into 12 archetypal categories of the signs of the zodiac, but in fact, every person’s chart includes all of the planets and all of the signs in the zodia, and all those planets and signs have a different relationship depending on where on earth we were born and the time, the exact moment that we came into the world. And when we get to looking at someone’s natal chart or birth chart at that level of complexity, I think what we find is actually more of an understanding of how much more of us there is and how specific and unique and nuanced and complex that person is. The life that the natal charts describes holds all of that complexity. And I think as queer people, as trans people… finding some sort of language or practice that acknowledges and recognizes that breadth and depth of complexity, I think, can feel really affirming. I think we can find a lot of recognition through the ways that astrology is capable of describing our lives. And for many of us, maybe we don’t always find that recognition in other parts of our lives, And so finding a practice that says, the very least offers us resources with which to acknowledge more of ourselves, more of who we are and more of whom we can become. I think that lends itself to at least my understanding of my queerness and my gender, for example. And I think it’s true of a lot of queer and trans folks who are interested in astrology, who study astrology or who practice astrology, is this capacity for describing and recognizing more. of who we are and who we can be.

Speaker 1 [00:53:26] I mean, I think it’s really interesting what you’re saying that like, we try to avoid being reductionist, right? Like, and we don’t like when people are reductionists with and to us, but what often happens in our conversation, you’re totally right, around astrology, it’s like, oh, Virgos do this, this person does that, blah, it becomes singular, and you strip kind of any type of agency out of it, and then people will walk in and say, I don’t Virgos, or I don’ like these people, or, you know?

Speaker 3 [00:53:52] Yeah. So then we’re using astrology to actually cultivate even further prejudice. How is that helping? And then like, this feels a little tender to me, but I can’t tell you the number of clients who have come to work with me who have very little understanding of astrology, but they saw something on the internet that said, Scorpios are bad for this reason. And those wounds actually go deep because there’s this sense of like, well, I don’t how to understand this tradition. but someone is telling me that this ancient tradition says something about me because of where the sun was when I was born, says something about me that makes me bad or defective or someone that people won’t like. And so some of the work that I end up doing with clients is actually some repair work and even some healing work around those specifically astrology related wounds where people who are talking about astrology, again, in those narrow, Reductive. limited in limiting ways actually does harm to people sometimes. So I think as much as possible in my work, I try to hold the space for the complexity of astrology rather than that reductive or narrow classification or categorization of people. We have enough of that in our lives. We don’t need more of that.

Speaker 1 [00:55:15] Do your friends constantly ask you to either pull tarot cards for them or readings? And I’m wondering if that’s annoying. And I was also wondering, not only friends, but your family, how do they see what you’re doing? And has there been a way in which practicing has influenced and opened them up in certain ways?

Speaker 3 [00:55:35] With friends, I am very full of gratitude and joy that the people who are closest to me really love that this is something that I practice. And some of my closest friends are people who book readings with me once a year, multiple times a year. Even friends who don’t book readings with me, like they’re open and curious and sometimes ask questions like, oh, what’s going on right now? Or, oh no, Mercury’s retrograde, what does that mean? And like, and I’m glad I’m there to be able to say like, actually there’s nothing to panic about. Yeah, I’m really grateful that the people who are closest to me do really appreciate this practice and what it brings, not only to my life, but what it can bring into their lives as well. Family is a little bit more complicated. I don’t have a close relationship with much of my family of origin, and a lot of that had to do with my queerness and my gender. Probably the witchcraft and astrology didn’t help the situation. And then there’s like, you know, there’s other layers like being a dancer and then being a burlesque dancer for a while and then writing a dissertation about eco-sexuality. And then, you, know, there’s lots of parts of my life that are probably incompatible with the world as they see it. And that’s not true of all of my family of origin, but I have an easier relationship, especially around astrology with the people who I think of as my chosen family and my friends and loved ones, that it becomes part of not the only, but part of the vocabulary. of our relationships.

Speaker 1 [00:57:02] In a moment like this when things are really tough, are really not easy, and every day something wrenching happens, and the worst of the world grows ever closer, I’m wondering, does astrology offer hope to you in this moment? Or does it help you face the difficult times? how, as a person outside of… one who has clients and a practice, but personally, how are you leaning on astrology in a moment like this?

Speaker 3 [00:57:40] Honestly, the first thing that comes to mind when you ask about hope is a couple of things that Edith Eaker has written. Edith is a psychologist and she talks about hope in a couple ways that are coming to mind right now. The first is whatever we’re experiencing, even if it is traumatic or terrible or horrifying, it is impermanent. It’s not forever. She describes that as hope. And then she takes it further and says that hope is the ability to stay open to seeing what happens next, which is different than what I think many of us are probably struggling with right now, which is despair, the sense that like, it’s never gonna change. We may feel that we see where it’s going.

Speaker 5 [00:58:30] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 [00:58:30] and it’s hard to have hope when we’re in that space. But if we can access what might actually be uncomfortable, which is we don’t know, and that uncertainty can be profoundly uncomfortable, but it can also be the soil from which hope can grow. And I think astrology supports that in at least a couple of ways. Astrology, I think, is pretty fundamentally oriented towards a perspective of ourselves and the world as an ongoing process of becoming. It’s not done, it’s not static, it is always emerging, it’s always changing. And we see that reflected in the cycles of the planets and their relationships to one another and moving through the sky over sometimes a year, sometimes a few years, sometimes decades. And so that sense of the ongoingness, I think. supports this view that I was referencing from Edith Eaker of like staying open to seeing what happens next because astrology gives us a way of appreciating that the story’s not done yet. As an aside I think that that’s also probably a big part of why queer and trans folks sometimes find a lot of support through astrology. We’re actually engaged in a process of becoming more and more of. who we’re here to be or who we could be. And so I think that process of ongoingness that we get from astrology, I think, supports that view of ourselves as well. And then the other piece is that things in astrology happen very slowly and usually over long periods of time. Even at the scale of my nervous system in my body, it gets me out of the urgency of fight or flight, like what’s gonna happen in this moment and what’s gonna happen to me, and I drop into this deeper, slower, longer space of stories that are unfolding for a long time. It doesn’t tell me how it’s all going to end up, but what it does do is allow me to hold the intensity of this moment inside of much bigger and longer and more expansive ways of seeing. the world, and that gives me more space with which to navigate right now. That right now is not the only thing we’re dealing with. The things that we’re facing right now have been decades in the making. And so if that’s true, then it’s very likely that the solutions are going to be decades, if not hundreds of years, in the Making as well. And so then my role is to find how can I contribute to that. right now, knowing that I might not see the end, but that I am part of this big, long story, and my job is to show up and do the work that I can do in this moment and support my communities in the ways that I Can, so that we continue to be part of the stories and the ways that we are here to be. Well, Michael, thank you so much for

Speaker 1 [01:01:46] for joining us and thank you for sharing the perspective that astrology gives to you as a queer person, as a trans person in the world. Thank you so much. Thank you, it’s just been an honor to be in conversation with you. Thank you. Thank you much, really appreciate it. That was astrologer Michael J. Morris. Thank you for joining me on the TransLash Podcast. Now listen all the way through to the end of the show for something extra. If you like what you heard, make sure to leave a comment on Spotify or a five-star review on Apple Podcast. You might just hear me read it out on the show. The TransLash Podcast is produced by TransLash Media. The TransLash team includes Oliver-Ash Kleine and Aubrey Callaway. Xander Adams is our senior sound engineer and a contributing producer. This show gets to your ears with the help of our social media team, including Morgan Asprey. The music you heard was composed by Ben Drahgi and also courtesy of ZZK Records. The TransLash podcast is made possible by the support of foundations and listeners like you. Well, this week, when I’m super excited about, in fact, the day that you’re listening to this podcast, I’m at the GLAAD Awards, where Translash is nominated for two awards for a documentary that we produced with CBS called American Problems Trans Solutions and as outstanding independent news outlet or something close to that. So I’m Super excited to be there for that gathering and to just be an amazing energy at this wild time.