Trans Gay Love

Speaker 1 [00:00:09] Hey, fam, it’s me, Imara. Welcome to the TransLash podcast. A show where we tell trans stories to save trans lives. You know, the reality is that even in dark political times, there’s one thing that is sure to continue, and that is love. That’s why we are thrilled today for our Valentine’s Day trans episode. Now, there’s so many different types of love, so many different types of relationships, and we love them all and are all valid and we embrace all different types of relationships. But a type of relationship that gets so little visibility in our community are actually trans gay people, trans people who are in same sex relationships, either with cis people or other trans people. So we wanted to be sure to uplift and to celebrate what it means to be gay, trans and in love, especially the love part. So in a transition first I’m going to be interviewing a couple. So get ready for our heartfelt conversation with YouTuber Arthur Rockwell and his partner, Harry Weisman. 

Speaker 2 [00:01:18] I think a lot of them have had it like hammered into their head, like, don’t be creepy, don’t like fantasize someone. And I’m like, You’ve never been with a trans guy before, You know, like, you wouldn’t know how to properly fetishize me. You know. 

Speaker 3 [00:01:30] I think Arthur to me seems to like love being chance and love being a gay man. And, you know, and love’s living the life that he lives. And I can, too. And can we all. 

Speaker 1 [00:01:44] But before we get to this conversation, let’s start out, as always, with some trans joy. 

Unidentified [00:01:53] The. Up, up, up, up, up. 

Speaker 1 [00:02:07] Dating as a trans person can be tricky and the usual advice doesn’t always cut it. That’s where a dating and relationship coach Cara Chang steps in from creating a dating app profile to dodging chasers. She’s made it her mission to help trans people navigate the world of romance. You can find some of Kara’s best tips and tricks and her free trans survival guide to online dating. Or you can check out her podcast, Relationships, where she spills the tea on love, bombing boundaries and heartbreak. Here’s Kara with some advice on how to find that someone special. 

Speaker 3 [00:02:45] I think a lot of times when it comes to love, people associate love with anxiety. They associate it with the feeling of being on a rollercoaster, high highs, low lows. And so when people tell me like, I’m not feeling that spark with someone, what they really mean. 

Speaker 1 [00:03:00] Is that. 

Speaker 3 [00:03:01] This person does not make me suffer as much as I feel like I should feel. 

Speaker 2 [00:03:05] In order to feel like I’m in love. 

Speaker 3 [00:03:08] True love as ease and comfort. And so I think the really special thing about. 

Speaker 2 [00:03:13] Finding someone in your. 

Speaker 3 [00:03:14] Life, someone who knows the real you, someone who loves and accept you for who you are and not for who the world wants you to be. That calm in your mind and that feeling of good. 

Speaker 1 [00:03:25] That feeling of pleasure. 

Speaker 3 [00:03:27] Is the ultimate feeling. And I think that’s what makes love so special. 

Speaker 1 [00:03:32] Kara Chang You are trans joy. Do you know someone like Kara who embodies trans joy? If so, send us an email at translash_ podcast@translash.org and make sure to include their name, contact info and why you think they should get a shout-out and a future Trans Joy segment. And with that, let’s get into my Cupid conversation with Arthur and Harry. I’m so excited to get into this special Valentine’s Day conversation with partners Arthur Rockwell and Harry Weisman. You may know Arthur from his YouTube channel, where he shares his nuanced takes on everything from using Grindr as a gay trans man to transitioning while in a relationship outside of his online presence. Arthur is also an economics Ph.D. student, and sitting right next to Arthur is his boyfriend, Harry. As the executive director of a disability rights nonprofit, Harry is passionate about amplifying the voices of people with disabilities. Harry has also made a few guest star appearances on Arthur’s YouTube channel, where he shared his perspective on dating a trans man as a cis guy. Arthur and Harry, thank you so much for joining me today. 

Speaker 2 [00:04:48] Yeah, thanks for having us. 

Speaker 3 [00:04:49] Weiss Thanks for having us. 

Speaker 1 [00:04:51] Thank you. Thank you. It can always be strange to talk about, you know, intimate details in your. Your partnerships. And thanks for coming on. I mean, Arthur, I know you do it all the time. And so just just it’s your life. It’s your life. So thank you so much for for joining us. Arthur, I want to start with you because. Figuring out that you’re trans is a process, right? And for many people is a journey and can be hard and can be contradictory. And because there are these signals coming from society that, you know, you don’t exist and you have to fight against that, especially now. But on top of that, there’s this assumption that you’re going to be attracted to cis women or trans women and femmes and not really one that you would possibly be gay and trans or lesbian and trans. And I’m wondering if you can just give us an insight into how you figured that all out. 

Speaker 2 [00:05:51] Yeah, I definitely felt like my sexuality came like second to my gender in terms of the exploration part. Like, I remember when I was realizing I was trans, I wasn’t sure what was going to happen with my sexuality. I was actually in a relationship with a guy at that point in time that he identified as bisexual. But he was really worried I was going to become straight. Like once I started testosterone. And that was even like what his parents said, too. And I didn’t really have much to say in response to that because I was like, maybe I will. You know, it’s my first time doing all this, too. And I remember, yeah, when I started hormones, it was a thing where I was like, okay, maybe now will be a time where I’ll explore, like, maybe I am straight. I did think about that for some chunk of time, and I think it was only when I was I actually like did sleep with a woman. And then after that, I was like, I think that maybe I am gay. It was hard to envision myself as a man, let alone a gay man. And so I had to I had to take that first step to transition before the pieces of my sexuality became more clear. 

Speaker 1 [00:06:51] And did it surprise you that even after you started transitioning, that you were still attracted to men? And did that attraction change in any way, or did it just remain constant? 

Speaker 2 [00:07:03] Yeah, I definitely felt like it changed. And yeah, I think it was surprising to me before transition. I definitely was interested in guys who were bisexual or just even when I was interested, women, people who are bisexual. And I think a little bit of that was because I sensed that I might something might be changing about my gender in the future and that it felt very safe to be with people who were by your pan. But when I would see guys that were, like, extremely effeminate or very obviously gay, I often wouldn’t be interested in them before transition. I think, because I knew that they wouldn’t be interested in me. And then as I got further along in my transition, these features that are very gay coded started to be very attractive to me because in this case, the signal was something entirely opposite, which was that these people actually might be interested in me. And I remember that it’s happened a few times where Harry and I had been watching TV with, you know, characters that are sort of the trope of like the gay guy on a show. And I would have watched that before transition and been like, there’s that, you know, fruity, gay guy, whatever. And now I’m watching that show and Harry and I are both like, Well, that guy is so hot. And so it’s interesting how that, like, signal in your brain can flip a little. 

Speaker 1 [00:08:08] Carrie, can you talk a little bit about how you knew that you were attracted to trans men or did you not know that and you didn’t know that Arthur was trans? And then that was something that you guys had to negotiate? Like, how did you come into realizing that your sexual orientation while gay is also queer as well? 

Speaker 3 [00:08:33] Yeah, that’s a great question. I think I have known that I was gay or attracted to men since high school at the latest probably. And so I had a lot of time before reading Arthur to, you know, I think kind of just get used to that. But for that sort of attraction to evolve and change and certainly for a number of years I was very steeped in queer community where actually I was one of the only cis gay men. And it was a lot of, you know, lesbians and non-binary people, people born, born female and, you know, presenting very much. And I did find myself attracted to a good number of them. So I think I guess it like it’s not like it didn’t occur to me that like this could happen, that I could be attracted to a trans man like Arthur. As for learning about Arthur, I think we actually disagree on whether or not I knew ahead of time. I thought in my memory that I did know. But he also has a distinct memory of coming out to me and telling me after the fact. And of course, this interaction was drunk at a party, so who really knows? But if I didn’t know ahead of time, I wasn’t surprised, I think because I like had known a lot of trans men. And so it wasn’t like a new concept to me. I’ve met and seen them before as some of my friends, but I think definitely I hadn’t dated or slept with a trans fat before. And so that was definitely new. 

Speaker 1 [00:10:01] And what came up for you as you started dating Arthur? As you know, he was your first romantic partner who was trans. What came up for you in that and did you find having sex with Arthur the same or different in terms of how you emotionally felt? I think that’s more of what I’m interested in. Like emotionally. How was that for you? 

Speaker 3 [00:10:26] Yeah. Yeah, it definitely like, felt new and it like, felt very clear that like, I could really, I really felt how new that was, I think, in a sense. And so I think as obviously attracted to Arthur, but the parts that were new, you know, I was like, I don’t know yet actually, if I am attracted into, you know, certainly when there were emotions and feelings developing between I. And I really wanted that to work out. I was like, What if, like, the sexual attraction isn’t there in the way that I want it to be? And I think it did take us some time to figure that out. But the emotions there were just like, it felt like higher stakes because I wanted it to work. And and I had doubts, and I was afraid that it just wouldn’t. Then it just wouldn’t click for me. And I don’t know, it changed eventually. It just. It just did. And and maybe it was just taking time to be together and experiment and try things out with each other. And now it’s like, funny to me that we ever had that period in our relationship. 

Speaker 1 [00:11:29] Yeah. It’s like love finds a way. You know, I. I think that’s life, you know, like, that’s, that’s the thing that occurs to me. Are there. How did you experience this phase of figuring out, you know, we know that we’re attracted to each other, but like sexually, is it is it going to work? I mean, because I can imagine that bringing up all kinds of emotions as a trans person and fear, does it trigger dysmorphia? You know, what did it bring up for you or did you think that, this is just like a natural part of figuring out your or your relationship? 

Speaker 2 [00:12:03] Yeah, I think it’s interesting because how I related to it then would have been very different than how I would have related to it now. Because at that time I had had one relationship with a gay man before Harry. And it was a very similar beginning phase. In both cases, there was like an adjustment period for the first month or so. This is new. It’s scary to me. There’s a lot of pressure. I want to make this work. And the person is like sort of intimidated by the newness. And so because that was like the second time this was happening and the previous time had worked out, I was just like, Well, that’s that’s how this goes. Like there is that initial period where the person is apprehensive. But I just knew I was like, We have a good bond. I felt confident it wasn’t going to be an issue. I think later on I realized that isn’t really every person’s reaction. There are plenty of people who don’t have, like, an apprehension going into something new. And so, like, I found it stressful at that period in time also because I felt like there wasn’t like much I could do about it. You know, I just am trans. But I was like, but it’s unavoidable. Whereas now I feel like I’m like, Yeah, it’s stressful and I’m happy we made it through it. But like, that was in some sense, it’s not how everything goes. It’s not like every trans person their first time with someone always has that month or two, but at that period in time, I totally believe that was just the way it was. 

Speaker 1 [00:13:18] How have your friends reacted to your relationship where they surprised when they caught off guard? Like what about your larger circle that you had at the time that you started dating? How did they react to your being with with Harry and vice versa? 

Speaker 2 [00:13:35] We met through a group of friends that was sort of starting to form at the time that we got together. So I think that made for a lot of entertaining stories in terms of talking with our mutual friends and a lot of our mutual friends, hearing lots of gratuitous details about the beginning of things. But then I think after not too long, it became the case that we basically formed this group of friends together. And so it felt like the friends were sort of all ours rather than like, you know, individual friends. But you did also have to tell I remember you were talking with some of your friends about the fact that you were dating a trans guy, right? Harry? 

Speaker 3 [00:14:09] Yeah. Yeah, I with some, but also some I didn’t. And at that point, Arthur was passing. And so there are still, I think, a good number of my friends today who don’t know that my they all know Arthur at this point that they don’t know that he’s trans, which is really interesting and leads to some funny conversations and scenarios where it becomes obvious that they don’t know. I don’t think there was much of a like a strong reaction. I think that it was just, you know, for the friends who who didn’t know he was trans, I think it was just like, that’s that’s new. That’s new for you. So it’s a cat in some ways, but also in some ways, Arthur is just, you know, another guy that I am now dating. 

Speaker 1 [00:14:53] And your parents, like we as parents, I mean, what did they think like Harry was? I mean, were your parents always accepting of you being gay, you know, or did they have to, like, go through a process of accepting that you were gay and by the time you was like, and I’m dating a trans guy, they were like, okay, whatever. You know, was the parental piece of this. 

Speaker 3 [00:15:13] Yeah, My parents have always been great. They’ve been accepting since the moment I came out. You know, and then certainly now, I guess at that point it was like. Ten, 12 years later. Plenty of time to get used to, you know, my dating life and and my sexuality beyond, like, the pretty accepting starting point to begin with. And then I think on top of that, a lot of my friends, including childhood friends that my parents knew really well, had come out as trans and as trans men. It wasn’t a new concept to them. They studied, never dated before, but they knew trans men very well. So I don’t I don’t fully know the extent they needed to wrap their heads around me. Didn’t get transmitted myself by them. You know, they were absolutely accepting from the get go. 

Speaker 1 [00:15:58] Arthur, can you talk a little bit about. The invisibility that trans people, but in this case, trans men who are attracted to or in relationships with gay men can feel and and what impact that kind of has on on people as they navigate the world. 

Speaker 2 [00:16:19] I think it’s interesting, like one of the first conversations that Harry and I had before we got together was me talking with him about how I couldn’t be on Grinder. And I was like, because I’m a trans guy. And then Harry’s response was, Well, there I transmit on Grinder, which of course I didn’t know because I was not on the app myself. And I think that there was a lot early in my relationship with Harry. I was not nearly as ingratiated in gay male spaces. And so I had this preconception that there were no trans guys in these spaces, in part because I am bad and also in part because many trans men do pass. And so what happens is you tell yourself, these are only cis, man. You go to the space, you see a bunch of men and then you’re like, Well, that confirmed my suspicion. There were only six men at the place. But then I think when you get, you know, a little more in the community, so I’m not like in community with trans gay guys, you realize like, wow, there are trans guys in basically all these spaces. They’re just not visible to the eye. And so I think that on one hand, now that I’m like really comfortable in the space, it’s kind of cool. Like, I like that I’ll see other trans guys and we know, but no one else necessarily knows. But I think that it does make it very intimidating early on because I think every gay trans guy has this feeling at first, like, I’m the first one that ever existed and it feels that way to you, but it just have to get a little more. You have to like take that leap of faith and start meeting the people before you realize there are lots of us. 

Speaker 1 [00:17:44] What’s been the response? I mean, I know the response has been huge, but what what are some of the responses that stand out for you from Trans Man who found her YouTube channel and followed kind of your advice and your presence? Like what? What are some of the things that stand out to you that people have said about, you know, why it matters or what it’s done for them? 

Speaker 2 [00:18:07] Yeah, I love reading the comments that I get in general because they’re often very, very sweet and very intense. And on the one hand, I’m like, it’s shocking to think that I could have that kind of an impact just through talking about my life. On the other hand, I was once watching YouTube videos and I have a bunch of people where I was like, they mattered a lot to me. I remember that one of the things that surprises me is a lot of people will talk about me being like the first example of a trans guy who feels very happy and is very positive about his transition. And I feel like very, very positive about how transition has related to my life as a gay man. Like, I don’t feel any more at all. Like it’s held me back from dating or nightlife or anything like that. It feels like, if anything, like it gives me a unique perspective that I feel very happy about and I will get people that are just like that will say that they didn’t think that was even like a remote possibility that you could feel like happy to be trans, which always on one hand makes me kind of sad to hear. But but I think fuels why I have this motivation to make this kind of content. 

Speaker 1 [00:19:15] Do you ever hear from trans men who feel like. Trapped in sexual orientation. What I mean by that is. Do you ever hear from trans men? Sure. Like, I really wish that I could be open about the fact that I am attracted to other men, but for community reasons or family reasons or where I live, like I feel like I need to date women. I’m wondering, do you hear that? 

Speaker 2 [00:19:43] Yeah, I definitely think that there is this strong link to masculinity being related to being straight. And so I think that I will see a lot of guys that are like an interesting comment, but people will comments like, Wow, that I pass well and do seem somewhat masculine despite being gay. And they’re happy to see that example. And I’m like, we’ll just like, look around. There are lots of you know, there are lots of gay men who have lost women in their own ways. But I think that there’s a strong pressure to perform like a a very particular version of masculinity as a trans man. And so I will get like wistful comments from guys on my channel about how they’re thinking about exploring that. That comes up on like when like when I talked about dating apps and about Rinder because I think some trans guys have this, this temptation to start like pretty deal anonymous profiles which you know can work for some people but I think is like especially hard if you’re trans because then you’re having to like, you know, hide like multiple aspects about yourself. But clearly there are a lot of people, cis and trans on these apps who are navigating hiding various aspects of themselves. 

Speaker 1 [00:20:51] Harriet, have you ever encountered any stigma as a gay man dating someone who is trans like? Have you ever come across that or have you ever felt that that particular piece of this or pressure? 

Speaker 3 [00:21:06] I don’t think so. Now I’m only like, I think we’ve gotten some funny comments on the one video we did together. I so does get a handful of transphobic comments here and there on a variety of these videos. And so our video is just one of them. And there would be comments like referring to me as straight or whatever. And it’s like, okay, whatever. But in real life, like, I haven’t, you know, and I definitely like that. Feels lucky in some ways, but I think had already surrounded myself with a community of people that include trans people. And I like, you know, trans people that are accepting of trans people. And so, you know, including within my own family, too. So so fortunately, it hasn’t come up. 

Speaker 1 [00:21:55] Good guide. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, you hear about that. What do you think is a line as a trans man who experiences what it’s like to to be an object of attraction from gay men? CIS gay men is the line for you between feeling fetishized and a genuine attraction. Like what? How do you make that distinction for yourself? Or how have you heard other people make that distinction? Because I know that that is I mean, for a lot of people that can be a line to navigate. But I’m wondering specifically. Yeah. For trans men. 

Speaker 2 [00:22:30] Yeah. So I think it really depends on the context. So if I was pursuing someone because I wanted to date them, I might have very specific standards for how they relate, you know, their attraction to my transness, how they talk about my body if I am just on Grinder. I think that like, it’s a platform where everyone is yeah, everyone’s fetishized and that’s, I think, one of those big things. If anything, I think sometimes I get annoyed when guys will really tiptoe around me on like on Grinder or at the club or whatever. Upon learning I’m trans because I’m like, You wouldn’t tiptoe around a guy like that. And I think a lot of them have had it like hammered into their head, like, don’t be creepy, don’t like fetishize someone. And I’m like, You’ve never been with a trans guy before, You know, like, you wouldn’t know how to properly fetishize me, you know. And which is, I think, a joke. I have it for my friends. I have guys that will like try to talk chaser but have never successfully chased. And I’m like, wow. So I think that there are times where it’s just like, okay, inappropriate to be centering someone around their body, in which case it’s okay and appropriate, I think, to be centering a trans guy around the parts of their body that make them unique. And then there are times where it like totally is not. And so I think these days I’m not looking for new romance. I have that that pretty security. And so any time that I am talking with other guys, not to say that the line doesn’t exist, but as long as as long as they come across as like a reasonable, thoughtful person to some extent, like I’m not like worried about my physical safety. And I, I don’t think I have a very strict line on that. 

Speaker 1 [00:24:10] All right. Is your relationship open? Sounds like it is. Yeah. 

Speaker 2 [00:24:13] Yeah. 

Speaker 1 [00:24:13] How do you negotiate that? The fact that like, you are also open as well, Because that’s also another thing that people who are in relationship can struggle with, but you all are doing successfully. So. How do you how do you maintain that and also maintain kind of the the very clear love that you also have for each other? I mean, it’s just bright and shiny. 

Speaker 2 [00:24:37] Yeah, I think that I mean, we’ve been open the entire time that we’ve been dating, which is good in certain ways because there was never any dramatic moment where it was like, okay, now everything’s changing. 

Speaker 1 [00:24:50] Be great for YouTube, though, if there is a dramatic moment. 

Speaker 2 [00:24:56] Yeah. And the I think at the beginning it was definitely it was a challenge and it was for a few reasons. I mean, we were getting to know each other as as people and starting a relationship, and that meant that, like all aspects of our relationship, required a lot of discussion, including the openness and especially the openness. But I think it was also difficult initially because Harry and I were coming sort of from like very, I think, opposite sides of the spectrum in terms of our relationship to like gay hookup culture. I was still pretty early in my transition, all things considered. I mean, I bet on testosterone for a few years, but I hadn’t yet had top surgery and I thought that I viewed large aspects of gay hookup culture as totally inaccessible to me, which it turns out wasn’t true. But I had to learn that in the course of those early months of our relationship. And then Harry had been engaging in gay hookup culture, like you got a grinder when you were like 18, right? So like a quite a long time. It’s been important for us to be engaging with our openness in a similar way and having to feel equal. And that’s like ebbed and flowed at different points in times and is at times an ongoing discussion, but I think hasn’t been an issue for for quite a while, really. 

Speaker 3 [00:26:01] Yeah. Yeah, I think we’re in a really good place with it right now. And it isn’t just I just, I find your question interesting because I like, I think a lot of relationships since search trans struggle with, you know, openness. Like we’ve settled into a way that works for us and and yeah and I think like Arthur said, it it took some time and I think, I think often I feel like when I hear from other or and other couples, it’s like when there’s like an imbalance and, and insecurities like that come with that with like how much attention one is getting or how open one is compared to the other in the relationship. And it is kind of funny, I think like, yeah, like I was saying like because I had more experience with that, I think he was maybe more worried about it at first or that there would be that imbalance like in my favor. I mean, and now it’s like often I feel the opposite, where he gets a lot of attention, whether because he’s trans or because he’s very attractive or both. And and I think like it kind of like cycles. So like, there are definitely times there I still feels that way about me. I think we recognize that and we communicate about it. And if and when we feel icky about the way things are going, we talk about it. But I think like because we both know that like we are each other’s like person and it’s like the most important, the other ones like, don’t. It just doesn’t matter how frequently or infrequently we are hooking up with other people and relative to each other. 

Speaker 1 [00:27:36] Harry what do you say to cis gay men who are like, I’m attracted to trans men, but I don’t quite know how to navigate it? It’s new to me. This is something that I’ve always, you know, wanted to experience either romantically or sexually. Like, what would you say to them? People who are holding back their attraction for trans men out of, you know, a variety of fears that they might have? 

Speaker 3 [00:28:02] I would just say, you know, be as open minded as I should be, you know, about the cis gay men that you’re attracted to. Right. You know, maybe you hook up with somebody who’s hairier than you’re used to or larger than you’re used to or, you know, has, you know, a smaller or larger genitals than you’re used to. You know, it’s like I think like there is just already so much variety among gay men. And of course, it would be new and different, but not in such a way that would be that you probably aren’t already used to or have experienced before. It doesn’t have to be life altering, right? 

Speaker 1 [00:28:40] I think it’s really important what you say about like, you always have something to negotiate. So just recognize that everybody who’s raised in the society, you know, can have some degree of transphobia. And if that’s what’s holding you back as well, you know, develop a conversation with yourself about that and why you’re letting that get in the way of your attraction. 

Speaker 3 [00:29:03] Yeah. 

Speaker 1 [00:29:04] What have you all learned? From loving each other. 

Speaker 2 [00:29:08] So before I started dating Harry. I’m an economics student. I had to set at one point in time that I really wanted to end up with another economist. And Harry is obviously is not an economist. Right? Failed? Yeah. And that had been like a feeling I had and I couldn’t exactly place like what it was about it because I didn’t want to, like, talk economics with my partner. I didn’t really want to, you know, do research with a partner. And I realized that I feel like I want to be with economists and I didn’t. Harry it becomes clear that he is an economist in the way that that I needed to be, which is to say that we’re part of the same community. I at one point in my life, my primary community had been the economic community. And now I feel like Harry and I have kind of forged a community of our own. And I hadn’t realized because I’d spent a lot of my life, I think, being kind of lonely. And so I thought that you date someone so that you’re, like, lonely together, basically. Like you have someone that you can be there with instead of being alone. But upon dating Harry, I realized that what is important to me and what is achievable for me has been dating someone where we can be surrounded by people together. And so that has been a very special part of our relationship, is the amount of time that we spend, not just the two of us, but the two of us as part of a larger group. 

Speaker 3 [00:30:31] I think what’s always struck me about Arthur is he has a really positive outlook on, like most things. Like, I think anyone who watches his YouTube channel knows that. And and it’s maybe why why they’re there. They’re watching. But I think great like it comes up for me in terms of like what I’ve learned is they don’t know that I would have expected, you know, somebody who is trans, especially in the world we live in today and especially right now, to like still be able to feel so positive. And I think it’s like changed the way that I look at the world and life. And which isn’t to say right about like we like ignore or, you know, can downplay real impacts and like scary things that are out there and, you know, transphobia and, you know, in our lives or in the world. But it’s like how we, like, fold those experiences and that knowledge of the world into like the rest of our experiences and knowledge of the world. It’s just, you know, it’s one part of it. And it doesn’t necessarily have to shake our belief that like, that we’re going to be okay and that we’re doing things right. And like, I think Arthur to me, like, seems to like love being chance of being a gay man and, you know, and loves living the life that he lives. And I can too. And can we all. 

Speaker 1 [00:31:58] If only hope that we can. Lastly, I’m wondering if the dramatic change in the atmosphere for. Transpeople and LGBTQ people writ large in this moment changes the stakes for your relationship. Do you find that? It’s more important than ever. Or do you find that it’s also scary? You know, we’re not living in a vacuum right now and the environment can impact relationships. And so I’m wondering how, you know, this dramatic negative environment that we all find ourselves and how it’s changed, how you think of your relationship and how you need it or how you move in it. 

Speaker 2 [00:32:44] Yeah. I think I’ve I’ve thought about in this shift that relationships and community do feel extra important because those are things that are going to change. Like it’s not like Carrie woke up to the news and it was like, well, you know, your sex marker is an asset in the eyes of the government, so I’m going to see you that way. Nor would any of our friends have like, you know, responded. But also, I think it’s important in terms of like, you know, game planning, like it is something that Harry and I talk about. I’m going to graduate in like a year and a half and we’re likely going to move. And then, you know, we’d be think about like, would we be open to moving to a blue city and a red state? Would we be open to moving to, you know, more swing states? You know, how do we go about navigating that? And I don’t think that we have any any clear plans or ideas about that. But it’s just nice to have a partner to, you know, to know that we’re going to make a choice together in all this. 

Speaker 3 [00:33:39] I was thinking the same thing. That’s, I think, like. We both in in slightly different by. Similar ways, like feel like plugged into the world and like to do something that impacts it. And I think for for I think it’s between like the research that he does and his YouTube channel and and donating to to places. And for me, you know, the work that I do and you know disability rights work like feels meaningful and like we were doing those things, you know, when the politics were good and when the politics are bad. And, you know, I think we still will keep doing them. And I think like, I think having that shared value between us feels really important. Like we’re on the same page, you know? And I think that’s also helped at least, you know, certainly for me, cope with everything that’s going on is like, well, like I have this like particular way that I know that I can make a difference. And, you know, I can’t solve everything or even solve this one thing, but I can. And at least it’s a place where, you know, I can make some sort of impact. And I think that I both feel that way, you know, and share that value. 

Speaker 1 [00:34:55] You know, wherever you move, it’ll be a totally new grinder experience and pool, so you’ll have that in your favor. New adventures await as you all continue to navigate the world together in your relationship. And thank you so much for joining us and thank you so much for for letting us kind of peek under the hood of your relationship. I think it’s really important to make sure that we are uplifting all the types of relationships that are possible in our community, because I think transience is about possibility. So thank you all so much. Really appreciate you and are just sending you the best. 

Speaker 3 [00:35:32] Thank you. Thank you for having us. So great to talk to you. 

Speaker 1 [00:35:35] Thank you so much. That was the trans gay couple of Arthur Rockwell and Harry Wiseman. Thank you for joining me on the Translation podcast. Now listen all the way through to the end of the show for something extra. If you like what you heard. Make sure to leave a comment on Spotify or a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. You might just hear me read it out on the show. The translation podcast is produced by translators. Media Translators team includes Oliver-Ash Klein and Aubrey Callaway. Xander Adams is our senior sound engineer and contributing producer. The show Gets Your Ear is with the help of our social media team, including Morgan Astbury. The music you heard was composed by Ben Draghi and also courtesy of Z. K Records. The TransLash podcast is made possible by the support of foundations and listeners like you. What am I looking forward to this week? Well, you know, I said at the top of show that they’re all different types of love. And one of those is for the love of newborns and kids, regardless of if they’re your own or not. So I’m going to spend my weekend meeting the newborn of dear friends of mine who have just brought new life into the world. That seems to me a really fantastic way to spend Valentine’s Day weekend with that type of energy and love. And so I can’t wait. So, yeah, baby love. That’s what I’m doing.