Unearthing Black Trans History

Speaker 1 [00:00:09] Hey, TransLash fam, it’s me, Imara. Welcome to the TransLash podcast. A show where we tell trans stories to save trans lives. Well, it’s Black History Month. You know, despite the fact that certain people are saying that it doesn’t exist. And it’s a time when we look back at the accomplishments, struggles and stories of African-Americans in this country. And today, I’m so excited to take a deep dive into history that has been so often erased and covered or ignored. And we’re not talking about the history that we normally think about, you know, namely in the 20th century, starting in the 50s and 60s. No, we are going back to the 19th and even the 18th century in order to unpack all that has been overlooked. To do so, we’ll be joined by culture makers and scholars who are reclaiming our past to build a more just future. Because we know that where we come from isn’t just about honoring those who came before us. But it’s actually about showing us the road ahead. First, I’m joined by scholar Rhea Kinsey, who takes us into the archives to explore the experience of 19th century pickpocket and tabloid figure Mary Jones. 

[00:01:22] We’re getting a trans history that speaks to this person, freely expressing themselves, freely expressing their gender identity in connection with other people who are supportive. 

[00:01:35] Then organizer and filmmaker Makayla Bradford stops by to share the truly remarkable story of Frances Thompson. 

[00:01:44] I just want folks to know that a black trans woman was one of the principal people responsible for the passage of the 14th Amendment. 

Speaker 1 [00:01:53] But before we get to these fascinating and inspiring conversations, let’s start out, as always, with some trans joy. Bi trans men have long been at the forefront of expanding and reshaping what masculinity can look like. But that effort can be a lonely one. Quentin Reynolds found that game changing men to help erase stigma and build community. For black trans masculine people through support groups, leadership development and workshops on everything from sexual health to domestic violence. Quentin is building spaces where black trans men can thrive. One of the highlights of game changing men’s programing is their annual spring cookout. Here’s Quentin to tell us more. So this year will be a third year doing it. 

Speaker 2 [00:02:58] And it’s after a week of like going to the Capitol and rallying up our folks, organizing around the anti-trans bills. 

[00:03:07] But after that, like long week of all that stuff. We have a cookout in the park. And it’s just like, Hey. Let’s sit back. And relax, guys. We don’t have some good barbecue. We don’t have games and fires like.  We do an Easter egg hunt for the kids. Yeah, I would say that’s one of the places of joy that I can look forward to, especially right now.

Speaker 1: Quentin, you and game changing men are trans joy. Do you know someone like Quentin who embodies trans joy? Well, send us an email at Trans Slash underscored podcast a trans talk and make sure to include their name, contact information and why you think they should get a shout out in a future Trans Joy segment. And with that, let’s get into my conversation with Raya and Mikayla. I’m so looking forward to this conversation with scholar, archivist and educator Raya Lee. Kenzie. Through his scholarship, Raya is dedicated to expanding the ways that we search for black and queer history. He holds a master’s degree in library science as well as a masters of arts, focused on historical archeology, gender studies and digital humanities. Ryan currently works as the public programs manager at Lefferts Historic House in Brooklyn. It’s an 18th century farmhouse museum that focuses on the lives of people that lived on and worked the land, including the land that be an indigenous tribe that settlers and enslaved Africans. Writers interest include reparative archival practice, the material culture of the enslaved, as well as black and queer historical subjects. That includes the story of Mary Jones, which I’m excited to dig into today. Raya, thank you so much. 

Speaker 2 [00:04:59] Thank you so much for having me. 

Speaker 1 [00:05:00] So let’s start out first with Mary Jones. Who is she? Most people don’t know her and her name. You know, pretty standard. Mary Jones is not distinctive in a certain way. Can you just tell us who she was and why why she matters? 

Speaker 2 [00:05:18] Absolutely. So Mary Jones is until very, very recently was widely known in certain academic circles as being one of the earliest documented transgender women in American history. And the first black or I guess, earliest black documented transgender woman in American history. We think that she was born in the 1790s, that by the 1830s she was very well known as both a sex worker and a pickpocket in New York City. She came to public notoriety when she was arrested following an incident where she pick pocketed one of her wealthy male clients. He goes to the police. The police do sort of like a sting operation where they track Mary down, get her to approach them as a potential client and arrest her. And it wasn’t until they did a full body search of Mary Jones looking for this stolen wallet that they realized that her anatomy and gender presentation did not match in the way that they were expecting. And that sort of initiates this series of documents where she’s interviewed as part of this arrest and trial process. And she’s asked questions about, you know, why does she dress like a woman? Why when did she start? All of these very interesting questions, of course, for us today who are thinking about trans history and very specifically black trans history, because in her answers, she talks not about like being this outsider who nobody likes. You know, she talks about like, this is encouraged by my community of fellow sex workers. I always dress this way amongst people of my own color, and not just in New York. She also talks about, you know, like when I was in New Orleans, I always dressed this way. And for me, that’s the most interesting part of her story. It’s not just that, you know, we’re getting this trans history from the 1830s. It’s that we’re getting a trans history that speaks to this person freely expressing themselves, freely expressing their gender identity in connection with other people who are supportive. 

Speaker 1 [00:08:12] Do we know how she made her way from New Orleans, from the South to New York City at a time of of enslavement? 

Speaker 2 [00:08:19] So that is something that is still a mystery. There are some theories, and I kind of also am wondering about this. There’s a line in her interview where they ask her or it appears that they asked her something about her history in the state service. So some people think that maybe at some point she was a soldier, potentially a sailor, because that status could have offered her some protection as a free black person traveling from north to south at a time of enslavement. But. Some of my most recent research points to the fact that state service was actually a euphemism for Have you done time in prison before? So it doesn’t say that she wasn’t a sailor or a soldier. She very well may have been. It’s just that particular line doesn’t maybe shed light in the same way we thought it did. So we really don’t know. I’ve tried to do a little bit of research and that’s still kind of ongoing as to what travel for black folks look like back then. And there seems to be some very, very recent scholarship that talks about how free black people were sort of navigating space and what the restrictions were, both on navigating public space in free cities like New York and also like going from free spaces to in slave spaces and back again. 

Speaker 1 [00:09:50] Yeah, I mean, it seemed to me that it might be unlikely that she was a soldier at that time in 1930s. You know, black people weren’t allowed to be armed in that way. But there were lots of sailors. I don’t think that people realized the large history of African-Americans in in sailing. And that was one of the ways in which there was actually this communication that worked amongst black people that actually was made possible through people sailing from north to south. So you could be working for a northern sailing company and allowed to sail in the south. You couldn’t really leave the boat or else, you know, problems. But that was one of the ways in which people sent messages to each other through these like really complicated networks that we don’t understand but were facilitated by sailors. So she was a sailor that could be, you know, very much a part of how she was able to move and get about. It’s really fascinating. 

Speaker 2 [00:10:45] Yeah, I mean, I’m really interested in exploring that connection more just because of the, you know, foundational link between sailing and sex work and sailing and queerness and throwing that aspect of it, playing this important role in the history of the black community at that time. Connecting all of those together the way that they’re connected in Mary Story, it just sort of reinforces again that those ideas about community that seem to be popping up again and again and again in her story. 

Speaker 1 [00:11:23] When was there interest in Mary’s story? I mean, I think that it would be so easy for historical figures and leaders and researchers to dismiss her story for so many reasons. And I’m wondering if you have a sense of when did it come to light and how did it come to light? 

Speaker 2 [00:11:41] I would say that like from the 50s to the 80s, her story kind of like makes its way to the surface in two kind of separate ways. First, there is the documentary record formed by these tabloid newspapers that talk about her story. And those articles get sort of recovered in the late 80s, early 90s, first by a scholar who was focusing on the history of sex work in New York City, Timothy Guilfoyle. And he’s just going through these articles by hand and just sort of happened to see this about her, which is just total serendipity, absolutely amazing that he was able to find that. And on the other side, in like the 50s and 60s, the image of her, that sort of very famous lithograph, the quote unquote, man monster lithograph that actually shows her dressed to the nines, Absolutely stunning. Beautiful. That actually gets published. And I think the name of the book is called Dear Dead Days or Dear Dark Days or something like that. It’s actually a published compendium of images by the guy who created The Addams Family about images that sort of inspired him. And it’s all like weird and macabre and strange images. And her image is in that book. And I saw that one of the artists, I think the artist name is Leslie Saar, who created in the early mid-nineties a portrait of Mary Jones, cites that as her first introduction to the story and her sort of getting more curious about who this person was. So I’m curious as to like the intersections between those two trajectories of her story coming back into sort of the public discourse. But it does seem like there is one trajectory kind of going on in the arts that has to do with the image and another trajectory that’s kind of going on in academia, which I. To do with the the articles. 

Speaker 1 [00:14:00] That picture that you mentioned or rendering rather of of her was in a picture does say man monster which would give the impression that she was a person who was demonized and discredited and marginalized. Of course, that did happen kind of after the trial around the trials that resulted from this case of pickpocketing. But can you talk a little bit about how she was seen before that? I mean, you mentioned that she was a tabloid figure, which would mean that she had a place in recognition in society, even has kind of a sex worker. And can you just talk a little bit about how people saw her before this case and being labeled a monster? 

Speaker 2 [00:14:41] So that rendering was created around the time of the first known public discussion of Mary Jones, which happened in 1836, June of 1836, following that infamous pickpocketing case. But a lot of those news articles that talk about her arrest and the subsequent trial and her, you know, getting put in Blackwell’s are saying saying, I think it was same thing. It talks about her being a well-known figure within sort of like the criminal underworld of that period, that she’s a well-known pickpocket, that she’s done this before, that her victims had been afraid to go to the police because in some situations she would reveal herself and then they’d be like, no, I can’t tell anyone about this. You know, they’re going to laugh me out of the police office. So that’s kind of how she was able to get away with this for so long. But once of interest to me is it seems that there were different ways of pickpocketing at the time period and that that was very gendered, you know, bumping into someone on the street, waiting for their wallet to fall out, sort of walking in public spaces and pickpocketing people. That’s one way of doing it. But involving pickpocketing with sex work in the way that Mary was doing it is a very feminine way of pickpocketing, and it’s also not something that anyone can just do, especially so successfully. Someone had to teach her. And the way that she talks about her fellow sex workers supporting her gender identity, encouraging her, saying that, you know, you look beautiful in women’s clothes, you really should just do this. I’m thinking that she has to have had some supportive community that’s not only encouraging her to dress as she likes, but also like really taking her under their wing and teaching her how to survive as a woman sex worker in this time period, in this in this space. And I think that says a lot about how the day to day and community response to someone like Mary Jones could be very different from how someone like Mary is treated when, you know, put in the tabloids, when put on trial. It’s sort of like, have you ever been on Twitter? I refuse to call it X. Have you ever been on Twitter and a trans person makes a post and then it breaks containment and suddenly the response is completely different? I think it was something similar to that. 

Speaker 1 [00:17:41] Yeah. And surviving as a black woman in New York City during a time in which slavery was the law of the land. I think by the 1830s, New York was unwinding slavery. But yet and still, what do we know about what she thought about herself? I mean, you mentioned it a little bit, but then she was basically like, this is who I am. This is all as I’ve always been and this is well before I came to the city, etc.. Do we know what she thought of herself besides that kind of affirming statement? Do we know if she thought that she was smart, if she was beautiful, if she was, you know, do we know what she thought of her own sort of character and life? 

Speaker 2 [00:18:24] I would say that we don’t really know. We don’t really get a lot more of her voice in these in the way that we do. In the 1836 court interview. There is a later situation. I forget the exact year, but it’s in the mid 1840s where again, she is accused of pickpocketing a rich white male client. And the court documents show that she’s again interviewed a. Again, the arresting officers had no idea that she was the Mary Jones. She’s given a completely different name by this point. She is claiming to be at least ten or so years younger than she is, and it is going over perfectly because no one questions her about this. And you can tell from the interview that there’s some liberties being taken with the story, but there could be some kernels of truth in there. Again, she mentions having a connection to New Orleans. Again, she talks about having a community. In this case, she says, like, you know, I have a husband and my husband is a merchant. And, you know, he he sails out of New Orleans and blah, blah, blah. And I mean, we do know that there was one situation where one of her associates, a younger white man who was also involved in sort of like the underground criminal community at the time. They have a document that they apparently sort of pledged their enduring friendship forever or something like that. I mean, clearly, I feel like she’s at least viewing herself as being worthy of having these connections. She doesn’t seem to have an idea of being an isolated figure or seeing herself that way. I mean, by the 1840s, the mid 1840s, the tabloids had reported on her arrests a number of times. And each time it’s like they get worse and worse with like how they describe her. But she doesn’t seem to have internalized it, at least from the few details we have. And the fact that she apparently never stopped dressing feminine Lee in public, even though she was thrown in jail multiple times when she was with men, when she was with a woman, when she was with a white man. When she was with a black woman. That’s the one thing that stayed completely consistent is that she always dressed this way, no matter what name she’s using, no matter how she’s describing herself or her gender. And I thought that was very telling. 

Speaker 1 [00:21:20] Where those relationships are. Those are friends. 

Speaker 2 [00:21:22] So those we believe or I believe are on some level some sort of intimate friendship. We do know that. I was able to find that in the 1855 New York State census. She is listed as being married to a woman. I believe the woman’s name was Betsy. Or maybe like Elizabeth. I also found evidence of a marriage certificate. And it’s interesting because we also have that later a 1850s news article that says she’s still dressing in women’s clothing and getting picked up for potentially soliciting or potentially pickpocketing or being up to no good in some way. And so it makes me think like, you know, who is this woman she married? What was their relationship like? 

Speaker 1 [00:22:16] I wonder what her gender was listed as and why were they living openly as two women who were married? 

Speaker 2 [00:22:24] Exactly. I mean, it’s very difficult to tell. You know, I haven’t been able to find a lot of information about her wife, but that’s definitely something that I would like to look more closely at. 

Speaker 1 [00:22:40] I mean, the thing about her overall is that she just comes across as a free person, like her spirit was free, right? She presented herself and the gender that she was all the time, no matter what happened. She had various type of relationships that she wanted to have married people who she wanted to marry, no matter what, had various types of relationships, was involved in sex work, was involved in a pickpocket, even after the public humiliation of a trial and being portrayed as a monster still went back to essentially who she was in the same place. Right. Most people leave and there was a whole thing around shame, especially during that era. But she sort of came out, remade her life and stayed in New York City. Like, it’s seems like one thing about her is that like she was a free woman, like in in the larger sense of that word. 

Speaker 2 [00:23:32] That’s so true. And I mean, the fact that she chose to stay was definitely one of the things that really raised the idea of community to me as well, because. You know, that’s a lot that’s a lot to deal with, especially at the time. I mean, New York was very large and very quickly getting larger. But, you know, the the area that she chose to stay in, it did seem like it had characters that were very well known to the people that lived there and very well known to the local police. And the more recognizable that she was because of the tabloid coverage, the fact that she was just like, no, I’m going right back to that same place I’m dressing the way that I always dressed. You know, that made her more of a target. And yet she still was like, no, this is something I’m doing, which makes me think like, you know, what is keeping her there? And I think it is the fact that no matter how awful outsiders may have been to her, no matter how much the police were kind of down to, you know, root her out and find her whenever she got out of prison. Sometimes it seems like the next day the cops were trying to pick her up again. There must have been people who were supportive of her that made it worth her while to return. Like I think about, for example, like who’s making her dresses, you know, who’s making her hair pieces, Where is she going to to get these items that she needs? And I’m thinking that there just has to have been like, you can’t I don’t think a person like Mary Jones can operate without a network. And one of the things I’m really interested in is looking more closely at what that network may have looked like both spatially and also. Who are these people? And just trying to, like ferret out more information about them. 

Speaker 1 [00:25:39] Yeah, I think that that’s right. Like, she clearly had a large support network. Right. And people who cared about her. And I think that there’s probably some interplay as well and in the city and society, because as much as she was ostracized, she was also accepted. Right. In this strange way and was in New York City for a very long time. Do we have a sense of when she passed? 

Speaker 2 [00:26:03] We don’t. I haven’t been able to find any records of her. After that, I believe it was like 1858 News article where she talks about that she has very many sort of like well-to-do white friends that could, you know, get her out of this, but she’s not going to call on them because she’s not going to like, you know, snitch basically about who they are. And that’s sort of the last time we really see anything about her. 

Speaker 1 [00:26:35] Yeah, that goes to the point that, like, she was a part of society in some way. 

Speaker 2 [00:26:38] Exactly. I mean, she was most likely part of various intersecting underground kinds of society. People who, you know, the mainstream are looking down on anyway. But that doesn’t diminish how supportive they were of her and probably even increased it. 

Speaker 1 [00:27:00] Yeah, I think that’s right. Or members of like, you know, mainstream society that also intersected with this world because it was a way that they could express themselves like a lot of really wealthy people in the 1920s would go up to Harlem, right. And be in black clubs. And so then created like this, this intersecting point between these two worlds where there were friendships and relationships. And I think that maybe something similar was at work for her. So when she says there are people that I can cause I don’t I don’t completely dismiss that. I don’t think that that was only posturing for the police. You know. 

Speaker 2 [00:27:34] That is a really excellent point that I hadn’t thought of before, and I would love to look more closely at that, because you’re right that that absolutely seems like it fits. And I think, too, another thing that I’ve been thinking about lately, because I’ve also tried to do some work at looking at, I guess, similar ideas in other aspects of trans history. And there’s actually this really amazing story of this female soldier in 18th century Great Britain. And they asked, how could she have passed amongst men for so long? And she actually used what’s known in the sort of trans mass community as an STP or stand to pee device. And how she got access to this device. Is that another woman who was passing as mail left it behind and she was able to take that and then use it herself. It’s. Very interesting because in the published her published memoirs, the. The editor makes a note saying that we really didn’t want to include this part because we didn’t want people to read it and the know how they could do this themselves. So I’m thinking like on the one hand, you get this tabloid coverage of someone like Mary Jones, and it’s very sad and very disheartening. But on the other hand, I’m thinking what might, you know, a trans woman who’s reading this coverage be able to read between the lines and see, you know, wow, there are other people like me out there. Mary Jones got arrested in this place. This place in this place. Well, maybe I should go to that place and see, you know, who might actually be there and be sort of accepting. Yeah. As queer people. Just knowing how to read between the lines of things that are otherwise very disparaging. And also as, as black people having those skills. I feel like that’s something that’s probably served our community, our communities for a very, very long time. 

Speaker 1 [00:29:54] Yeah. I mean, and also just this point that there are these expansive untold histories, right. That belie the assertion that trans people are new and and don’t have a history. Right. Which is the exact opposite of what your life and what your research is, is giving to us. I guess my final question is, at a time when so many trans people are feeling and coming under. Very real attacks from the world which are designed to marginalize, to erase, to push trans people out of public space and public life in general. There is a sense of people of kind of the worlds I’m closing and not being possible for them and then being possible in the world. But one of the things that made Jones’s story. Does for us is it tells us that even at a time of extreme marginalization, in ways that we can’t imagine that there still was a free black trans woman who found a way during that time to not only live, but probably from her perspective to thrive. And as a person who is in this world that we are experiencing and at the same time who lives with her and who lives with her story. I’m wondering for you, what does Mary Jones’s story for you tell you about this moment and how to make it? In what ways does it give you reassurance that we can get through whatever is coming? 

Speaker 2 [00:31:36] A lot of times I kind of compare it to my parents, their slightly older parents, but like my dad grew up in Jim Crow era North Carolina. My mom grew up here. But, you know, lots of places in New York were still very segregated in the 60s and 70s and sort of growing up with their experiences. I feel like it does give you sort of like a weird sense of hope because, you know, on the one hand, hearing about these experiences can be very difficult, but you sort of see that people were able to come out of it on the other side, and you see the ways that people were able to like maintain a degree of agency or take charge of the opportunities that they did have, and also tips for navigating things when things get really difficult. It kind of gives you the permission that you need to sort of look out for yourself sometimes, take care of your own mental health first, take care of your immediate safety needs, you know, before thinking about like a larger political moment and how those choices sort of play out long term, kind of gives you that kind of an example. In terms of Mary Jones sort of that interplay between like her individual life, her life as an individual and also her life as a member of a community has been very inspirational to me. So kind of getting to see, I don’t want to say a non politicized view of queer black trans community because everything is political, especially now when we we really need to be thinking about those systemic processes and power and control, but thinking about it on more of like an individual level, like who are the people that you can rely on to tell you what you need to know right now to navigate the situation you’re in right now? Who’s the person that you can rely on to help you fix your hair when you’re having a bad day? Or the person that you can rely on to help you learn how to make money or support yourself, even if it’s something that’s maybe a little bit on the edge or. I don’t know. It’s like that. That’s the kind of thing that I think really holds the community is that, you know, we navigate together. Just seeing that there’s this long, extensive history of that has been really, really affirming. I also want to say that very recently, earlier this year, I was actually able to find a newspaper article that talked about a woman named I believe her name was Sarah Thompson. And Sarah Thompson was a trans woman who lived a couple blocks away from Mary Jones. A year before Mary Jones story hits the tabloids in 1836. So I’m thinking. Worst case scenario. There were two free black trans women living in this neighborhood in the 1830s doing their thing. And best case scenario, we have an earlier Mary Jones case on the record books to give a little bit more detail about what she was doing. Where did she come from? I’m really excited about the potential for those stories and sort of seeing what more we can find out. 

Speaker 1 [00:35:42] Thank you so much for coming on. And if you find out more about Sarah Thompson, please do come back on and share that with us. Thank you so much. 

Speaker 2 [00:35:50] Absolutely. Any time. Thank you. 

Speaker 1 [00:35:53] That was scholar and archivist Rhea Kinsey. I’m so glad to be joined by award winning cultural organizer and filmmaker Michela Bradford, based in Atlanta. McKayla is known for her creativity and leadership in southern and national justice movements. This includes her eight years working at the Transgender Law Center, where she was the first black trans Southerner on staff. I’m especially excited today, though, to talk with McKayla about her recent work directing Under False Colors, a film about two incredible black women and reconstruction era Memphis. And be sure to check out the show notes for more details about the film’s upcoming Southern screening tour this spring. Mikayla is also a staple of cultural programing in Georgia. She is the co-founder of the Southern Fried Queer Pride Festival. Mikayla is also a two time Atlanta Pride March grand Marshal. And if that wasn’t enough, she was also awarded the 2023 John Lewis Good Trouble Award for bringing courageous and transformative change to the city of Atlanta. Mikayla currently serves as the co-director of Movement Building at Emerging Fund, a queer, Black and Brown Rapid Response Fund and Capacity Builder. Mikayla, thank you so much for joining us. 

Speaker 3 [00:37:27] I’m really happy to be here. This will be like a reunion interview for us. Since the last time you interviewed me in Atlanta. 

Speaker 1 [00:37:38] Which was 2019, I think if my memory serves, I think in 2018 or 2019 for the actually original Trans vice docu series. So, yes, yes, we’ve had many conversations on the record and off the record and super happy to be talking to you during this Black Pride month. Which brings me to the subject or one of the subjects of your film. Who is Frances Thompson? I wanted to talk to you about her today because so many times people think that queer history and black queer history starts and, you know, 1970 maybe or 1969. But the story of Frances Thompson is 100 years prior to all of that. Can you just talk a little bit about who she was and what drew you to her as a subject? 

Speaker 3 [00:38:29] Absolutely. I was really inspired by her story. I learned about her through community, as we often do, word of mouth and started doing research. I started contacting scholars who had written on that time period. And I was just amazed to learn that a black trans woman was so pivotal in the passage of the 14th Amendment that guaranteed protections for formerly enslaved folks and that her history predated Marsha and Sylvia and Miss Major and many of the flash points that we name as critical for building trans movement as we know it today. 

Speaker 1 [00:39:18] So let’s talk a little bit about the details of her story as we know them. Realizing that there are gaps because of when she was and who she was. But this conversation around the 14th Amendment is really key, just to give people a brief history lesson so we can jump right into the 14th Amendment. After the Civil War, the United States passed the 13th Amendment, which freed formerly enslaved people. But formerly enslaved people still didn’t have citizenship, which came to be and the 14th Amendment. Now, of course, which is very much in conversation right now because our president is attempting to do away with the 14th Amendment. But can you just talk a little bit about her role in underscoring the need for an amendment that would make black people citizens? 

Speaker 3 [00:40:02] Yeah. So Frances played a really pivotal role in the passage of the 14th Amendment directly after the Civil War. And tensions were very high between black community and the former soldiers who fought in the war. And then the night that things kind of sparked for Frances and Memphis, Tennessee, was a night where black soldiers were celebrating their freedom. They were celebrating the winds changing and the things that might come with that. Whereas the white folks in town were angry and anxious, these black folks still had guns. Right? Could still defend themselves. And that night, as we know, there was a horrible massacre of black homes, churches, schools. These buildings were all burned down, folks. Homes were invaded. There was a lot of physical assault. And Frances was one of those folks. Who survived those attacks. And she survived not only to tell people about what happened, but to join with other black women in the city who were also testifying at the time to the US Congress. And this was the first time that black people, formerly enslaved people, black women, and particularly the first black trans woman, testified to the US Congress about the violence that they face at the hands of white supremacists, at the hands of police, in particular in the city of Memphis. 

Speaker 1 [00:41:48] Right. So there was this celebration, as you said, this massacre of people in town sounds very much like Tulsa, which is we know about now. But, you know, very much like Tulsa happened in Memphis. And then the Congress launched an investigation into what happened. And because of Frances and who she was, she was, as you say, invited to testify in front of Congress. What stands out for you in terms of what she said or what we know that she said? Like, why do we think that she was so singular in that community? Like what stood out about Frances as a human being. 

Speaker 3 [00:42:28] So we know that Frances was seen as a woman by her community. She was welcomed, validated. She had the nickname Auntie. I won’t say the rest of the nickname. Folks can look that up. She was regarded as a community figure and she ran this and the guy also in and took in people’s clothing and she mended their clothing. She was a washer woman, a seamstress. The pivotal thing I think, about her testimony is her naming that she saw the police stars, the stars that former slave catchers would wear to identify themselves. She saw those stars on her attackers and she named them as being police officers. And that’s really important because what she’s pointing out is that these were not random attacks. What she’s pointing out is that these were not vigilantes, but these were the city police force that were attacking citizens of the city of Memphis. When we think about the ways in which our society is today, the ways in which we are fighting back against Trump and fascism, we have to think about the ways in which black trans women have always and continue to point out how law enforcement is used to oppress us. It is often trans women who stick their necks out to make that call. And Frances was no different as she made her testimony, which made newspaper headlines around the country, garnered so much excitement and passion about passing the 14th Amendment to correct what had happened in this massacre, to apologize, to make amends. And I don’t think that without her fervent testimony, which we do have full record of, that the 14th Amendment would have passed so swiftly. 

Speaker 1 [00:44:38] Yeah, I think that, you know, that was a really contested time after the Civil War and there was a debate about how far people should go in protecting and then embracing African-Americans. But one of the things that the country was really clear about is that it didn’t want to return to enslavement. Right. They didn’t want black people to be enslaved. And so while there was a debate about citizenship, I think that kind of what you’re framing up is that this massacre and the power of her testimony was so searing that it made people realize that you couldn’t just free African-Americans and leave them to their fate without any kind of status. 

Speaker 3 [00:45:18] The country was at a turning point in the reconstruction era directly after the Civil War, and there were more folks open to not just the social aspects of the equality of black Americans, but also the economic benefits of having folks join full citizenship and be a part of society. Right. We often know that our oppressors don’t just give us rights because they want to be nice. And they often do it with incentive. They often do it because it is better for them in the long run. And I think understanding that the economy took a huge hit after the Civil War and needed a resurgence of black folks who would spend their dollars, their hard earned dollars on the US economy was. A selling point as well. 

Speaker 1 [00:46:12] Is there a line or something from her testimony that stands out for you? I mean, you mentioned the imagery that she gave around essentially telling the country the same people who used to come after us as enslaved people were the people that burned our homes to the ground and assaulted us and killed people on a massive scale. But is there a line specifically that you can think of that jumps out at you where that really kind of broke through? 

Speaker 3 [00:46:40] I can’t remember exactly how the line went, but I remember when I was reading through her testimony and she’s having this line of questioning that the congressional committee is leading her through, where it becomes clear that the congressional committee does not trust her testimony, does not trust her credibility, and starts asking questions like, okay, so did you know these men implying that this was something else? Right. And we can fill in the blank of what that might be? And she says something to the effect of I did not know these men at all. However, I knew that they were the policemen that guard this city. And I think that that’s important because often claims of violence against women are discredited. Once there is some connection established between the survivor and her attacker, a previous connection, intimate connection, a business transaction, whatever. And it seemed like the congressman that was questioning her started leading her through a different line of questioning, implying that there was a relationship between her and her attackers. And I think it was really smart of her and her testimony to refute that she also was a girl of girls and made sure that they knew exactly what was taken from her. She named a very beautiful red dress that cost her a lot of money. She named, you know, jewelry. She named other things that were important to her and communicated, hey, I have things of value that were taken from me. And it is my understanding that in this country that’s not okay and I should be receiving compensation for these things. I should be receiving justice for these. And I think she was really bold to say that in 1866 it was very bold to name your attackers in 1866. That was very bold to say anything as a black person in 1866. So this black trans woman was fierce. 

Speaker 1 [00:49:13] What has knowing this story done for you? And you said that you heard this in community kind of pique your interest. It stuck with you. You started to dig into it is whatever impact it’s had greater than what you expected or different than what you expected? Like, what has following her done for you and how has it changed from the first time you heard about her to now? 

Speaker 3 [00:49:42] A First just have to say, like as I’m what they call grants. It’s an acronym for girls raised in the South. And as one of those girls, I was always growing up looking for role models that I could emulate. I loved hearing about the activism and organizing of Marsha P Johnson and Sylvia Rivera. I was just elated the day I finally got to meet Miss Major Griffin Gracie. But I craved connection with trans women who grew up in the South and understood what it means to grow up here and to make home here. No shade to the girls that leave. I get it. But for the girls that stay, there is a different type of community that we have to build here to survive. And learning about Frances Thompson gave me inspiration and motivation to stay and to build. She inspired my organizing work when I first joined Southerners on New Ground as a member and organizer back in 2016. And that was when I first learned of her, was in 2016. And now, since the production of this short film and the proliferation of her story, I see more and more folks gravitate towards her story as an icon of Southern trans excellence. And that fills my heart with warmth to know that someone that I wanted to make an icon is becoming an icon all on her own. Didn’t need my art, didn’t need my platform to do it. The story in and of itself is powerful, and I think the story is why the Black and Posse cast and crew I got to work with were drawn to this story. Why they committed to making this film. The story is just inspiring and it reminds us that even in the darkest of times, we have to resist. 

Speaker 1 [00:52:03] What do you think the inclusion of her story into American history? We do not only for Americans overall, but I’m specifically thinking about black Americans, where there is this idea, you know, very much promulgated during this latest campaign, that transpeople just sprung out of the ground. And, I don’t know, pick a year, 2017 or 2014, that the idea that not only did black trans people exist well before always, but documented the well before, but also the way in which she was accepted and embraced. 

Speaker 3 [00:52:46] Yeah, I don’t think a lot of cisgender heterosexual black folk understand how deeply entwined their destinies are with black trans people. There’s been so much fear mongering and isolating that has really impacted our community deeply and removed us from even understanding that pre-colonial times black trans people held high positions in society. We were the folks who knew rituals and healing practices that were only taught to us because we were the ones who understood the balance of feminine and masculine energy. You know, this is recorded in so many spiritual traditions on the motherland. For me, one of my goals is to get Francis enshrined with her own day, perhaps by the state of Tennessee, the city of Memphis, the federal government. I just want folks to know that a black trans woman was one of the principal people responsible for the passage of the 14th Amendment that a black trans woman and that many black trans women have been pivotal. Players in the civil rights movement have been pivotal. Players in the Black Lives Matter movement have been pivotal players since the dawn of time. And I know that this is an important story to tell for cisgender heterosexual black folks because we did a table reading before we ever filmed anything. And at that table reading, I invited my cousins, my aunts, my uncles, and there was one elder who cried after hearing just the script reading. And she said, I had no idea that this woman was transgender until I got to the very end of this story. And that makes it all the more important to me to support this story because her story mirrors my own. And she told a story of the violence that she faced when schools were still learning how to reintegrate after segregation, the violence she faced from her white peers and the isolation she felt. And I think if cisgender heterosexual black folk and heterosexual folk broadly can relate to this experience of overcoming surviving and thriving through dark times, violent times, they can understand why it is that trans people fight so hard, why it is that we are so loud and fierce and must be visible, why it is that we say over and over again that trans people deserve to thrive. 

Speaker 1 [00:56:00] I said, what do you think her story says to us about? Dealing with the current era that we’re in. And I’m wondering if you have any thoughts about what she would say. To someone like Donald Trump. You know, we know that she stood up and tell the truth. What do we know about her testimony and who she was and how she remained that you think is really relevant? To where we are now and what she would tell us. 

Speaker 3 [00:56:36] The year after Francis Thompson testified. She was arrested and they investigated her body and learned that she was not a gender woman. And this made headlines. And the conservative journalists of the time used her gender identity as a way to discredit her testimony and to discredit the testimony of all the other black women that stood alongside her. And the title that they used in this article was Under False colors. A man living as a woman. Flying under false colors. And so that is why I made the title of this short film Under False Colors, because I think what Francis would say today and what she said then are exactly the same. I am not the one flying under false colors. The folks at the head of this country are flying under false colors. That red, that white, that blue. False symbolism for a nation you did not find. You did not discover. You stole. For a labor. You stole trans people, black people, migrant people, disabled people, all of us. Oppressed people are not flying under false colors. It is this government that is flying under false colors. 

Speaker 1 [00:58:19] Mikayla, thank you so much for joining us and for bringing Frances Thompson to life, not only visually through the film that you made, but also through audio and recounting the story of who she was and what she did. Thank you so much. So deeply appreciative for you and for this really powerful Black History Month conversation. 

Speaker 3 [00:58:43] Thank you so much for having me. Any time. Seth Always down to support the platform. 

Speaker 1 [00:58:49] Thank you. And vice versa. That was filmmaker and visionary Mikayla Bradford. Thank you for joining me on the Trans Nice podcast. Now listen all the way through to the end of the show for something extra. If you like what you heard. Make sure to leave a comment on Spotify or a five star review on Apple Podcasts. You might just hear it read aloud on the show. The TransLash podcast is produced by Translation Media. The translation team includes Oliver-Ash Kleine and Aubrey Callaway. Xander Adams is our senior sound engineer and a contributing producer. This show gets your ears the help of our social media team, including Morgan Astbury. The music you heard was composed by Ben Draghi and also courtesy of Z. K Records. The TransLash podcast is made possible by the support of foundations and listeners like you. So what’s on my mind is a listening session that I had on Tuesday for the Trans album. Now, you all may have heard of the Trans album. It’s a benefit album for trans people made possible by the Red Hat and Blue Label brand, which has done a lot of benefit albums, and it is a compilation of songs which are meant to be about and for trans people. But included on that is show. There’s new track one that she did. It’s the first 1 in 10 years along with others, and I happened to be on that album. I think I’ve mentioned that here before. And one of the tracks by an artist called Lorraine. People are small, and at that particular listening session we listened to the tracks and then also had a conversation about creativity and art, especially in this moment of marginalization and repression and how that’s really important. So I hope that you will take the opportunity to learn more about the album, support it by buying it or sharing it on Spotify. Follow the artists that are on there, some of them really well known, some of them not well known and just, you know, engage in something that is uplifting because I know it makes a difference to me. So during this month where we celebrate love in all of its forms, show some love to the Trans album.