Imara Jones: Hey TransLash family. It’s me, Imara Jones. Welcome to the TransLash Podcast, a show where we tell trans stories to save trans lives. We’re in the middle, of course, of pride month, and as you all may have heard there was recently a group of 31 men who were dressed in some sort of uniform altogether arrested in Idaho on their way to a pride event. Those 31 men were a part of a group called The Patriot Front and although authorities are not releasing a lot of details about it, what they are telling us is that they were intent on disturbing a pride. So this is just another reminder that as we move through this month of celebration and fun and reveling in who we are, that we pay attention to everything around us given the world that we are living in. This also goes for those of you all who will be headed out on the streets, when the abortion ruling comes down, either way, I’m sure there will be demonstrations. So just be safe y’all and make sure that you’re paying attention and taking care of each other. And when you’re going out, please make sure you have a safety program and a safety plan, program and plan with your friends, to keep each other safe because that’s the only way it will happen is for us to keep each other safe. But despite the fact that there are people who are attempting to dampen our shine this month with all these types of attacks that we described and others that are legislative and others that are just mean on the internet, we continue to thrive. Now, as you may have heard, Michael R. Jackson’s musical, A Strange Loop, won best musical at the Tonys this week. Now, it’s produced, written, and acted by queer people, and it’s a musical about a black, fat, queer man writing a play about a black, fat, gay man. All of these representations are not normally seen on the stage let alone do they carter a Tony, but that happens. Now, it also made history in several other ways ensuring that Jennifer Hudson went into the halcyon performers by getting an EGOT. Now, what’s an EGOT? That’s an Emmy, Grammy, Oscar, and Tony because she was a producer on A Strange Loop soap. She got a statute for that, putting her in that extremely rare category and even more important for our community, [inaudible], is the fact that L Morgan Lee was nominated as best actress in a featured role for her role in A Strange Loop, making her the first black trans woman to ever be nominated for a Tony in its history. In fact, the first trans woman out ever in Tony’s history to be nominated.
Now, sadly L did not win. She lost to the veteran, iconic Patti LuPone but as L and I discussed, winning was not necessarily the point. In fact, what mattered most was the journey for her to get to this moment and what comes next.
L Morgan Lee: When we opened at playwrights, there were moments of me thinking, I didn’t even realize the importance of being a black trans woman getting to bow on that stage because it’s not a place that nearly enough of us are in.
Imara: And just so that you know, my conversation with L occurred just days before the Tony’s. Now, even though all of this is good news and lots of joy, you can never have enough trans joy. So of course, like always we’re going to begin with our trans story segment. But first, I want you all to make sure that you’re helping the TransLash Podcast grow and expand and reach new people. And how can you do that? You can leave a review on Apple podcast. It really helps us get the word out and I might even read it on air like I’m going to do right now. Thanks to Ash Nasty, yep, that’s their handle, who left this review that left me with a big smile. “TransLash is powerful, evocative, educational, and insightful. Miss Imara is nothing short of brilliant. Everyone needs to hear the stories told on this show. Bravo!” Well, thank you Ash Nasty. “Miss Imara, thanks to you.” Now, remember, if you want to help us grow, leave us a review and I might read it here. Now, for real this time, let’s get to some trans joy.
Imara: The stage can be a powerful place to explore new ways of moving, presenting, and being. That’s why I wanted to highlight The Theater Offensive in Boston, Massachusetts, a company where queer and trans people of color are center stage. The group’s cross-generational programming includes youth leader training, a queer family series as well as residencies and workshops supporting talented artists in our community. Above all, The Theater Offensive helps to facilitate art by, for, and about queer and trans people of color that transcends artistic boundaries and dismantles oppression. Harold Stewart is the group’s executive director and cultural strategist. They explained that the name theater offensive is intentional and speaks directly to the kind of work they encouraged from participants.
Harold Stewart: When you live in a world that has conservative politics towards as you’re being, being offensive comes not only as an act of liberation but an act of Joy, right? As queer and trans people of color connected to bodies and connected to mind, heart, and spirit, we highlight pleasure in the ways in which we find pleasure. Whether they’re valid in this society or not, our pleasure can be on display or can be sacred. This program and these opportunities really allow us to be centered, and yes, especially young folks who are trying to dream up worlds early in identity development to really, really engage with possibilities based on imagination versus what a very limited society has said the options are.
Imara: Harold Stewart, you and all of the other artists at The Theater Offensive are trans joy.
With me today is L Morgan Lee, the first openly trans person to be nominated for a Tony Award. Her nod is for best performance by an actress in a featured role in a musical for her role in the Tony-winning, A Strange Loop. It’s a Pulitzer prize-winning show about a black queer theater, Usher, writing a musical about a black, gay man. Morgan also received an Obie award at Playwrights Horizons for her performance in the musical. She also played the lead in the stage adaptation of the Danish girl in the United Kingdom and is currently working on an original show called The Women, where a group of women and non-binary writers create vignettes speaking to various experiences and expectations of womanhood. Last year, L Morgan won the 2021 Mark O’Donnell prize, which is awarded annually to emerging theater artists by Playwrights Horizons and The Actors Fund meaning that we can expect to see many more great performances from her. L Morgan, thank you so much for joining us.
L Morgan Lee: Thank you for having me.
Imara: Well, first of all, congratulations. I know that when I saw the Tony nominations and saw your name, I was thrilled and beyond belief in the best way because there have been so many people who’ve been fighting for this moment in terms of having black representation, black trans representation on Broadway, and then to have this Tony nomination come at this moment is just such a blossoming. And so I went to your page immediately and what I saw there was, “I can’t stop crying.” And then I said, back to you, “You shouldn’t stop crying.” So I’m wondering if you can just one, let everyone know if you’ve been able to stop crying, and secondly, um, secondly, what was coming up for you and those tears?
L Morgan: Oh God. If I have to say I have stopped crying but even hearing you say that, started to make my eyes water again. I’m also a bit of a softie. So like me, crying is not so out of the ordinary, but in that moment, the tears were, I mean, I feel like they were so full of everything. They were the little kid in me crying. They were seeing the process that we’ve been through to develop this show, being singled out in that way crying. They were the tons and tons of trans and non-binary and gender expansive people I know who are in this business, who are simply even trying to get an audition. There are years of us trying to be seen. I have friends who are in their 60s friends, who are in their 50s, who some left the city because of needing to relocate because they were trans and having to start all over again, the tears were full of, oh my gosh, like one of us got through. And like the overwhelming responsibility, I feel that it was me.
Imara: All of the reviews single you out. Do many actors in this particular play, and of course, it takes every actor to help make this production what it is, including the crew as well, and I’m wondering as you journeyed along the way, did you have a sense that this was a different performance for you, that this felt different that this role the embodying of one of the voices and perspectives of Usher, did this feel different for you?
L Morgan: Sometimes they say that like when you’re presented with the things that are meant to change you or the things that aren’t meant to help you get to like a breakthrough of some kind, you always see that fork in the road constantly. There’s always the like, “I shouldn’t do this. I don’t know if I want to do this. This is a problem.” It’s a thing that I kept having to remind myself of why I was there actually because I transitioned through the development of the show and when I came into the project, I was not being public about gender. I was not talking about my gender. I was not talking about the thoughts that were in my mind because I hadn’t fully felt comfortable doing so publicly and I was able to hide inside of the role I was playing in this show because she gets to take on a lot of different kinds of women kind of throughout the show and I didn’t have to explain why I was doing the material I was doing or why it was singing in the keys I was singing it. I didn’t have to explain anything. I could just hide inside of it and live my full life and not feel a need to have to say anything. And then that moment came when life and thoughts came together and I felt like it was time to say something and to step into my own truthfully. And when I did that, in many ways, I felt like it was not a space that was meant for me to tell this story because that’s not who they expected that they’d cast from the beginning. I actually tried to leave the show before we started off-Broadway at Playwrights. I pulled out because I said, I care about the story that’s being told here. I care about the team. I care about the, the show, and I’m stepping into my womanhood in a way that I don’t know that a space that is meant for gay men is appropriate for me to be a part of this story. And the team then was like, “Well, wait, wait. Can we chat with you? Because we’ve been talking behind your back, and we want to share with you what we’ve been talking about. Whatever decision that you choose to make, wonderful. We will support you, but we want to let you know that we’ve been talking about the fact that we are all evolving as you are. And our understanding of gender is evolving. As we are watching you go through transition and what we want for this piece is to be able to reach as many people as possible. And it’s not even about just simple casting. It’s that your spirit is in the piece and you are a part of this piece and we want you to be here. So we are willing to have the conversations with you about the things that make you feel like this is not the space for you to be in. We will not have those chats with you to see if there are things that you’re being asked to do or you’re being asked to say that somehow make you feel unaffirmed or uncomfortable or triggered so that we can maybe talk through that.” And of course, because this story is not about trans people and it’s not about me, there might be some pushback here and there about things but we want to be able to at least have the dialogue and see if this is a possibility. It’s not the response that you expect for a creative team to say in this process and I didn’t want to leave but I did feel like it was the best choice. When they said that, I felt like, “You know what, I’m going to stay because I also think that it’s important for me to be here.” And when we opened at Playwrights, there were moments of me thinking, I didn’t even realize, the importance of being a black trans woman, getting to bow on that stage because it’s not a place that nearly enough of us are in or are seen for or are being brought into. And so, my getting to do that in some ways gives me a little bit more access and space in the room to be able to start to have some conversations with people about trying to get more of us in these faces and more of us in these rooms where we can be a part of the storytelling.
Imara: One of the interesting things that you’re pointing out is that base on gay blackness can be expansive. There is an outer edge of it in terms of like [inaudible] where it can rub up against trans femininity. And so like I can understand that kind of rubbing on the edge for you. But I also think the important point here is that gender dysphoria has lots of different elements and the elements aren’t the same for everyone. And how you perceive the relationship between yourself and gender and your dysphoria shapes how you describe yourself and sorting out what part of it is yours and therefore, then figuring out how you want to respond or show that up in the world is a process. And it’s a process for a lot of different people. I think that’s what you’re describing and the reason why that can seem difficult to describe sometimes is because it’s difficult to put into words to be quite honest.
L Morgan: I’m very cautious of how I put it into words because I feel like we, we so often are used to hearing people analyzing our transitions and our ways of identifying. And so, when we hear that, I think sometimes in particular, when we’re talking to trans people, we very rarely hear people talking about transition or sort of questioning ideas around things without it feeling accusatory in some way or as if it’s judging in some way. What’s something about me is I am more accusatory and judgmental of a society that makes us feel like we are not enough and I’m more accusatory and judgmental of a society that does not center us in conversations about us. And instead is so often centering sis adjacency and how close we seem to be to sis people, or stating sis as normal instead of stating us as normal and the conversations about us.
Imara: Uh-huh.
L Morgan: So I have all of the love in my heart for trans people so I’m always very careful about sort of how I speak because it’s so different for so many people.
Imara: When was the point when you realize, okay, this is real. This is who I am. I’m trans. I’m a woman. Was that point while you were doing all of the early work around A Strange Loop, like, I’m wondering if there’s an intersection between that moment and this play.
L Morgan: I think that a lot of the work was done actually outside of this play. And, and what happens is, every time I came back to workshops of the piece, my own lens had slightly shifted a bit more. And so, I had gotten a little bit more comfortable in my own womanhood. When I first, first came out, I was in that sort of like alignment of I am questioning things in terms of like, I would not call myself a woman right away because I felt like I needed to do a lot of unpacking about what that meant. And so I started in a space of being somewhat non-binary in my mind and then, very quickly realized that I was not non-binary at all and that the unpacking was just, I did not understand clearly what being a woman meant to me. As I got more and more settled into that, as I’ve gotten more comfortable with my womanhood and life on the street was starting to change drastically, I think my lens also evolved with each incarnation of the show when we did it in DC, when we did it at Playwrights and then on Broadway, the process of building the thing, my lens just became more and more tuned into specifically seeing through the eyes of a black woman and how this piece affected me as a result of that, which is very complicated.
Imara: So, I’m wondering if you could just tell us a little bit about where you grew up and when did theater or performance move into your life and how do you think it shifted your trajectory when it did?
L Morgan: I grew up watching all of the old movie musicals constantly, constantly whenever they would come on TV or whatever. I could rent a tape, I would get all of them. I only knew to some extent from like a very, very, very young age that I would lose myself, fantasizing about being in these movie musicals or these old like MGM films or The Wiz. And then when I got to school, even in elementary school, I was performing pretty much right away. I’ve always been on stage in some way or doing some sort of performance, it became an actual like, “I can do this.” As I was finishing middle school, I learned about Duke Ellington School of the Arts in DC and that doing this was a possibility. And then I went to college for musical theater and moved to New York. So, for me, it was a pretty straightforward trajectory. Once I realized that it was even a possibility to be an actor, that was the boat I immediately jumped onto.
Imara: And you were, like, “I have to do this” and that never stopped in your life.
L Morgan: Never stopped. I think I became more specific about the kinds of stories that I wanted to be a part of telling, of course, the older I get, but storytelling is a reason that I’m here.
Imara: Did you develop musical theater and clearly came out as a gay man along the way, when we have a sense of that, it was around the time of this play that you began to realize and understand that you weren’t gay that you’re actually like, “No. I’m something else, something else going on here?”
L Morgan: Well, I always felt that way.
Imara: Oh, okay. Talk about that.
L Morgan: I’ve accepted gay as a label because I thought that that was just where I was supposed to fit, but it never actually felt like me. So, I’ve been told that since I was in elementary school basically. So, to me, it was always people saying things like you think you’re a girl. You’re not a girl. You are just a gay man or you were a gay boy or you’re– I think that narrative was just what I heard enough to think, “Oh, well, maybe that’s just what I am.” Because like, I’d had gender dysphoria since I was a little kid. I can think of a moment specifically when I was like, six, waking up thinking if I woke up tomorrow and was a girl, everything will be okay. But for me, it’s just that thought growing up was formed completely, like that was not a rational thought to me. I never ran things by people. I’m overly independent and overly headstrong in some ways. Not someone that does a lot of reaching out for help in ways that I probably should have more over the years. And so, at that point, I didn’t think it made any sense. So I never shared it and it was never something that, that I put a lot of investment into because I thought that it was impossible. So why would I even keep trying to entertain myself with this thought? So like later on in life to come back to it in my 30s was earth-shattering in so many ways. It’s also one of the reasons why I’m open to speaking about things now because it took me a while to like really get to myself. I had done everything I could to make myself believe that it was impossible and that I had to fit into a certain box in order for it to be.
Imara: When you, around the time of the play, were beginning to actually transition, getting the process of transitioning in your mind and your spirit, was that just the natural evolution of what you were talking about, or did something shift that made you go into that space of exploring and opening up more?
L Morgan: I have taken a bit of a step away from acting and was developing some other skills. The reason I had taken a step back is because I just kept feeling like the roles I was being called in for weren’t true and weren’t feeling like me and that I was just really doing a lot of acting, acting with exclamation points. Like I was doing a lot of trying to make myself fit into this thing that people expected to see me as. And I didn’t feel like I was alive in some ways. And so, I needed to figure things out and I start doing some photography to artistically let my mind explore a bit more and to just dig into something that wasn’t being judged by everybody else where I could own it. And so what I realized is as I was working with people on the photography side, I was always interested in finding out who they were at their core and I would even ask things like if you were able to simply be yourself without like the weight of the around you without societal expectations without gender expectations, without anybody judging you or putting pressure on you who is that person like, who is that human? That’s the person that I want to photograph. And I realized that as I was doing that, I turned myself in a couple of those moments and was like, “Who are you?” I was processing in many ways. I’ve written a musical. I’m still sort of developing that musical behind the scenes a bit specifically about a woman who is trans in the early 1900s in Louisiana and that was 2003 that I started writing this show and this is why it sounds [inaudible] it took me so long because I in 2003, I said, in order for me to be able to tell a story honestly, and not have to explain myself and be able to simply be, the character needs to be a trans woman. And I kept saying to people, because people were, like, where is this story coming from? It’s so beautiful. It seems so genuine. And I was like, “I don’t know. I am a vessel.” As if like I’m just being used to tell this story and like, as I look back, I’m like, “Oh my God” like it’s– this was literally sitting in front of your face the whole time. It’s just that you were not able to see it clearly. So I was asking that question. When are you the most free? When are you the most rounded? When do you feel the most in your truth and your power? And I realized it was in the moments where I was leaning into the side of my spirit, that side of my personality that I identified at that point with as sort of the woman side in some way. And at that point, I thought. Well, you know what? If I’ve kept, you know, 20% of myself caged off and I have not allowed her to be free, then, what happens if I just open that cage door and let her be more free and allow myself to live a little bit more freely? And that’s how I started to step into things. It was very slow and once I did that, what I realized is that it wasn’t 20% of myself, that was the 80 or 90% of myself. I didn’t realize that I had only been living on this tiny percentage of who I am. And as I stepped forward into my womanhood, I felt like I was living more and more. It’s as if I was, you know, finding a lifeline in so many ways. And so, I hope that answers the question.
Imara: No, yeah. Really, really fully and I think in a really powerful and nuanced way. With everything that you’ve been through in this moment where you’re playing one of the manifestations, I’m not going to give it away because you have to go see it, but one of the, the manifestations of the thought processes of the main character who is a black queer man in a very powerful way that’s undeniable despite the world’s attempts to undermine that and it just strikes me that you’re playing one of those manifestations and many characters within that, kind of like a Russian doll. And if any moment either when you were developing the show or when you’re on stage sometimes, if there’s this weird fusion between your own experience and what you play in the show.
L Morgan: I felt that a little more in 2015 than I do today in 2022. There’s certainly elements of Usher’s journey that I related to personally absolutely in 2022. The thing that is most, sort of, mind-blowing for me in the show is that I get to, to express to him that it is important to just be you and it’s okay to live authentically and to find your truth and tell your stories despite the people that don’t think that you should even be here. Like, I think that that is sort of an interesting gift from the universe that I get to be the one to say that to him considering my own journey because often times as I’m saying that to Usher, I’m also reminding myself of that.
Imara: What do you think will be running through your mind when you’re sitting in the theater at the Tonys and they announce your name as one of the nominees?
L Morgan: I wonder if I will be in a place where I can not stop crying again.
Imara: And make sure whoever is sitting beside you brings tissues. That’s the only second thing I think of.
L Morgan: I think that they will definitely need a lot of them. For me, the dream was always growing up seeing– I would see the award shows. I would fantasize about these, like these women in these beautiful dresses who were like winning awards and that felt so free. It’s as if the world was– the world was looking at them. I was looking at them through my television screen and there seemed to be not a care in the world and they just seem to love what they were doing. And they seem to be like in their– in their flow and their zone. I used to fantasize and dream about being one of them. But I knew at that point, as a little kid that like I said, it wasn’t possible. So on June 12th, when I’m sitting there, I think the biggest thing for me will be having that little girl in my head and her finally getting a chance to be one of them. And to, as an adult, be able to see the complexities of what it means to be one of them. Because we see the beautiful dresses and the lights and all the things that seem like the fantasy and we hold on to that and it’s something that I have to, in some ways, remind myself to hold on to because what’s inside of it all is so much more complex.
Imara: When the lights go out there and no matter how long it may run, the lights will eventually, at some point, go off on A Strange Loop. What are the other things that you imagine for yourself now that you are fulfilling your dream? What are the other dreams that you have?
L Morgan: Something I have noticed through this process is that I’ve gotten a bit more access in many ways. And a, I want to be able to take advantage of that access in the ways that I can to allow more to be able to help to create more space, to be able to lead the rooms a bit more, to be able to create rooms that can tell stories that include people like me that can include more people from underrepresented and marginalized groups. Broadway is often times a doorway into film and television and that has always been the big dream for me and I think A Strange Loop, if nothing else, is a show that proves that truth is transcendent and that when you do show those vulnerable spots and when you do open up to people, it’s one of the things that connects us as humans and Michael’s ability to unapologetically lean into the story that wanted to tell has definitely inspired me to want to do the same and to not be afraid to lean into the things that make me feel the most afraid or the most nervous about talking about because that’s how we connect. That’s how the people that need to see us, that’s how they find us. And I think that’s extremely important. So, the thing I dream about for myself the most is how can I make the most of the space that I’m being able to start to take up.
Imara: I know that I speak for everyone listening, that we are all extremely proud of you. By the time that this airs, we will know whether or not you have won that Tony but regardless of what happens that night–
L Morgan: I’ve won already.
Imara: You said it. And in addition, I doubt that this is the last award show where we’re going to see you sitting in a chair and hearing your name announced. And I just want to thank you again for coming on doing an incredibly hectic time, where among other things you have to figure out what you’re going to wear to come on our show and to talk about your journey and what this moment means for you, for our community and for the history of music theater. L Morgan Lee, thank you so much.
L Morgan: Thank you.
Imara: That was L Morgan Lee. The first trans person to ever be nominated for a Tony Award.
Thanks for listening to the TransLash Podcast. Now, be sure to listen, all the way to the end for something extra. The TransLash Podcast is produced by TransLash Media. The TransLash team includes Oliver-Ash Kleine and Aubrey Callaway who just joined our team everybody. Yay! Our intern is Mirana Munson-Burke. Xander Adams is a contributing producer to the show, and our digital strategy is handled by Daniela Capistrano. The music you heard was composed by Ben Draghi and also courtesy of ZZK records. TransLash Podcast is made possible by the support of the foundations and listeners like you.
This week, what am I looking forward to? It’ll be very short. This one, this week is Juneteenth. Juneteenth First Federal holiday. I kind of forgot that it was made a Federal holiday and then I saw all of the advertising for various ice creams at Walmart and other people advertising Juneteenth watermelon salad at certain grocery stores and I thought right. What’s going on? And then I remember that it’s a holiday which of course is why it’s been commercialized and that’s the exact opposite of Juneteenth, of course, is not meant to be commercial. It’s meant to be a celebration of Freedom, a solemn reflection on the long hard road for African Americans, to get freedom and what that freedom and liberation means for our entire country and the unfinished business that we had about it. But people have figured out how to make it about ice cream. So that’s the American way. So I’m looking forward to this First Federal holiday. I hope that you find a meaningful way to celebrate Juneteenth in a way that works for you.
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